Thanks Vent. Ive had very little experience with girls, so its really helpful to get your thoughts on this stuff. I've coached several sub 420/930 guys and I've been able to peg their potential early on for the most part. I ran for Vin when he was at Stanford so I base a lot of the work we do on his stuff with a few other things blended in that I've picked up other places. Ill keep you guys up to date on our progress the next few weeks.
Update from the last couple of weeks...
Monday ran 4x800 off a 400 jog. Purposefully kept it relaxed on the first 2. 2:37, 2:36, 2:31, 2:32. Added 2x300, 4x200 on the end at roughly 70 second pace.
Wednesday we did a 2k and 4x1k all at 6:20 pace. Pretty relaxed workout.
Today she ran 14x400 w/ a 200 jog recovery. 76 77 77 76 74 73 73 73 73 73 72 74 76 74. I was very encouraged by this one. I kept it relaxed by design on the first 4 and then let her open it up a bit. She looked very really strong and probably could have done 3-4 more at 75 or faster.
I've decided to let her go ahead and run a 1600 time trial next week on either tuesday or friday depending on the weather.
lawguy wrote:
Update from the last couple of weeks...
Monday ran 4x800 off a 400 jog. Purposefully kept it relaxed on the first 2. 2:37, 2:36, 2:31, 2:32. Added 2x300, 4x200 on the end at roughly 70 second pace.
OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout. Maybe with 800 jogs in between...but not 400. This workout indicates around 16:30 for the 5K, if not faster, and by your previous posts this is nearly impossible for her to pull off right now.
BR wrote:
lawguy wrote:Update from the last couple of weeks...
Monday ran 4x800 off a 400 jog. Purposefully kept it relaxed on the first 2. 2:37, 2:36, 2:31, 2:32. Added 2x300, 4x200 on the end at roughly 70 second pace.
OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout. Maybe with 800 jogs in between...but not 400. This workout indicates around 16:30 for the 5K, if not faster, and by your previous posts this is nearly impossible for her to pull off right now.
+1
That would indicate like a 16 minute 5k.
BR wrote:
lawguy wrote:Update from the last couple of weeks...
Monday ran 4x800 off a 400 jog. Purposefully kept it relaxed on the first 2. 2:37, 2:36, 2:31, 2:32. Added 2x300, 4x200 on the end at roughly 70 second pace.
OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout. Maybe with 800 jogs in between...but not 400. This workout indicates around 16:30 for the 5K, if not faster, and by your previous posts this is nearly impossible for her to pull off right now.
I should have been more specific on the recovery, but it definitely wasn't an 800 jog. She went straight into a 100 jog after finishing and I gave her an extra 30-60 secs standing after that. I think it worked out to be around 2:30 rest on average.
lawguy wrote:
BR wrote:OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout. Maybe with 800 jogs in between...but not 400. This workout indicates around 16:30 for the 5K, if not faster, and by your previous posts this is nearly impossible for her to pull off right now.
I should have been more specific on the recovery, but it definitely wasn't an 800 jog. She went straight into a 100 jog after finishing and I gave her an extra 30-60 secs standing after that. I think it worked out to be around 2:30 rest on average.
Whoops, didn't read your post carefully enough and thought you were talking about the workout today. Same issue though. Definitely not an 800 jog. Straight into a 400 jog after each and then 60-90 secs standing.
trails wrote:
BR wrote:OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout. Maybe with 800 jogs in between...but not 400. This workout indicates around 16:30 for the 5K, if not faster, and by your previous posts this is nearly impossible for her to pull off right now.
+1
That would indicate like a 16 minute 5k.
Eh, I definitely don't think that's indicative of a sub 16 even if it was just a 400 jog and straight into the next 800. All of my varsity boys could run that really easily and my best guy was in the mid 16s. My top 3 guys were running 6-8 x 800 this fall in 2:30-2:35 off of about 3 minutes recovery.
My 2 cents is that you're going about this all wrong. Your girl has lots of speed and not a lot of endurance, yet you're working almost exclusively on improving her speed. For a kid like her, you need to up her mileage and get her doing solid aerobic work over the winter. What kind of mileage has she done in the past? Have her raise her previous high by 5-10 mpw and put in a progressive long run once every 7-10 days, and a 20-25:00 tempo or 25-30:00 hill session once a week. To maintain speed I'd just give her something like 5x100 @800 pace or 8x50 @400 pace, 1-2x per week all winter.
When you get 6-8 weeks out from her goal race(s), start adding in the kinds of workouts you've been talking about (2-4-2 x 8, 8x400, etc) twice a week while maintaining a long run of 75-80% the length of her winter long runs.
If this sounds crazy or off-the-wall to an interval-focused coach, I've coached a 4:49/10:23/2:16 girl and a 2:18/5:10/18:00 girl, and a 4x8 team that ran 9:33 by doing exactly this type of strength (endurance) based training.
Good luck with getting your girl some scholarship offers. Have you contacted any in-state college coaches yet and given them her running background? Those who looking for talented but unnoticed kids love runners like her with speed and a minimal endurance base, because once she gets some mileage and threshold work she could improve rapidly at the college level.
gv10k wrote:
My 2 cents is that you're going about this all wrong. Your girl has lots of speed and not a lot of endurance, yet you're working almost exclusively on improving her speed. For a kid like her, you need to up her mileage and get her doing solid aerobic work over the winter. What kind of mileage has she done in the past? Have her raise her previous high by 5-10 mpw and put in a progressive long run once every 7-10 days, and a 20-25:00 tempo or 25-30:00 hill session once a week. To maintain speed I'd just give her something like 5x100 @800 pace or 8x50 @400 pace, 1-2x per week all winter.
When you get 6-8 weeks out from her goal race(s), start adding in the kinds of workouts you've been talking about (2-4-2 x 8, 8x400, etc) twice a week while maintaining a long run of 75-80% the length of her winter long runs.
If this sounds crazy or off-the-wall to an interval-focused coach, I've coached a 4:49/10:23/2:16 girl and a 2:18/5:10/18:00 girl, and a 4x8 team that ran 9:33 by doing exactly this type of strength (endurance) based training.
Good luck with getting your girl some scholarship offers. Have you contacted any in-state college coaches yet and given them her running background? Those who looking for talented but unnoticed kids love runners like her with speed and a minimal endurance base, because once she gets some mileage and threshold work she could improve rapidly at the college level.
Thanks for your input. I'm definitely interested in hearing stuff from people who have coached successful girls. What you outlined is actually really similar to how we are approaching this. The race she is getting ready for is on December 29th so we are in the middle of a 6 week training cycle that started a week after XC season. During cross, she was doing a 10-12 mile long run every week and lots of tempo runs. Our school isn't doing indoors this year and the purpose of trying to race fast now is to try and get some offers before signing day in Feb. We are still maintaining some strength stuff in addition to the interval work. Last week she did hills as a part of the first workout and a 10 mile long run last Saturday, picking it up to tempo pace the last 3 miles.
My plan for after this race is to give her the full break she would have had after XC season (1 week completely off + 1 week of easy jogging) and then go back into base work until late Feb.
gv10k wrote:
My 2 cents is that you're going about this all wrong. Your girl has lots of speed and not a lot of endurance, yet you're working almost exclusively on improving her speed. For a kid like her, you need to up her mileage and get her doing solid aerobic work over the winter. What kind of mileage has she done in the past? Have her raise her previous high by 5-10 mpw and put in a progressive long run once every 7-10 days, and a 20-25:00 tempo or 25-30:00 hill session once a week. To maintain speed I'd just give her something like 5x100 @800 pace or 8x50 @400 pace, 1-2x per week all winter.
When you get 6-8 weeks out from her goal race(s), start adding in the kinds of workouts you've been talking about (2-4-2 x 8, 8x400, etc) twice a week while maintaining a long run of 75-80% the length of her winter long runs.
If this sounds crazy or off-the-wall to an interval-focused coach, I've coached a 4:49/10:23/2:16 girl and a 2:18/5:10/18:00 girl, and a 4x8 team that ran 9:33 by doing exactly this type of strength (endurance) based training.
Good luck with getting your girl some scholarship offers. Have you contacted any in-state college coaches yet and given them her running background? Those who looking for talented but unnoticed kids love runners like her with speed and a minimal endurance base, because once she gets some mileage and threshold work she could improve rapidly at the college level.
Forgot to answer your question at the end. I've contacted a lot of schools about her. She has a full offer from an in state school, but it isn't her first choice in terms of where she would go if running wasn't a factor. Several other schools are interested based on her leg speed/potential, but don't want to commit to any money until they see what she can do for the 1600. That's why I decided on the 6 week build up for this race so that we have something to generate interest from some other schools in the last month before signing day. One coach emailed me this week and said they'd give her some money for a 5:10 and a large scholarship for sub 5.
gv10k wrote:
My 2 cents is that you're going about this all wrong. Your girl has lots of speed and not a lot of endurance, yet you're working almost exclusively on improving her speed. For a kid like her, you need to up her mileage and get her doing solid aerobic work over the winter. What kind of mileage has she done in the past? Have her raise her previous high by 5-10 mpw and put in a progressive long run once every 7-10 days, and a 20-25:00 tempo or 25-30:00 hill session once a week. To maintain speed I'd just give her something like 5x100 @800 pace or 8x50 @400 pace, 1-2x per week all winter.
When you get 6-8 weeks out from her goal race(s), start adding in the kinds of workouts you've been talking about (2-4-2 x 8, 8x400, etc) twice a week while maintaining a long run of 75-80% the length of her winter long runs.
If this sounds crazy or off-the-wall to an interval-focused coach, I've coached a 4:49/10:23/2:16 girl and a 2:18/5:10/18:00 girl, and a 4x8 team that ran 9:33 by doing exactly this type of strength (endurance) based training.
Good luck with getting your girl some scholarship offers. Have you contacted any in-state college coaches yet and given them her running background? Those who looking for talented but unnoticed kids love runners like her with speed and a minimal endurance base, because once she gets some mileage and threshold work she could improve rapidly at the college level.
I think you missed the part where he said that they were already less than 6 weeks out from the key race. Doing this speed work so close to cross country season should allow for quite a bit of carry over of fitness from the fall.
However, having said that, some longer intervals at 3200 pace wouldn't hurt.
Don't remember if previous coaching success with the females was a pre-req for posting on this thread, but I've coached one sub 5 girl and two that got really close.
CoachB wrote:
gv10k wrote:My 2 cents is that you're going about this all wrong. Your girl has lots of speed and not a lot of endurance, yet you're working almost exclusively on improving her speed. For a kid like her, you need to up her mileage and get her doing solid aerobic work over the winter. What kind of mileage has she done in the past? Have her raise her previous high by 5-10 mpw and put in a progressive long run once every 7-10 days, and a 20-25:00 tempo or 25-30:00 hill session once a week. To maintain speed I'd just give her something like 5x100 @800 pace or 8x50 @400 pace, 1-2x per week all winter.
When you get 6-8 weeks out from her goal race(s), start adding in the kinds of workouts you've been talking about (2-4-2 x 8, 8x400, etc) twice a week while maintaining a long run of 75-80% the length of her winter long runs.
If this sounds crazy or off-the-wall to an interval-focused coach, I've coached a 4:49/10:23/2:16 girl and a 2:18/5:10/18:00 girl, and a 4x8 team that ran 9:33 by doing exactly this type of strength (endurance) based training.
Good luck with getting your girl some scholarship offers. Have you contacted any in-state college coaches yet and given them her running background? Those who looking for talented but unnoticed kids love runners like her with speed and a minimal endurance base, because once she gets some mileage and threshold work she could improve rapidly at the college level.
I think you missed the part where he said that they were already less than 6 weeks out from the key race. Doing this speed work so close to cross country season should allow for quite a bit of carry over of fitness from the fall.
However, having said that, some longer intervals at 3200 pace wouldn't hurt.
Don't remember if previous coaching success with the females was a pre-req for posting on this thread, but I've coached one sub 5 girl and two that got really close.
Thanks for your input. I'm open to advice from anyone, but those who have had success with elite girls is definitely appreciated. In the last few weeks, we've done a couple of workouts that incorporated stuff at a little slower than 5k pace. (ie mile and a half at 620 pace, 2ks, 1k repeats) Those workouts have been relatively relaxed compared to the more intense workouts I've outlined above. I hadn't thought about doing anything at 3200 pace though. She's never run a 32 and as of right now, the plan this spring is just to focus on the 8/16. In the past with my guys, I've always trained them as either 8/16 or 16/32. Obviously the 16/32 guys could run an 8 off of that, but I don't typically run my 8/16 guy up to the 32. Would you still suggest running some workouts at 32 pace just for the strength aspect or do you think the tempo work would be sufficient as high end aerobic work?
BR wrote:
OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout.
lawguy wrote:
I should have been more specific on the recovery...Straight into a 400 jog after each and then 60-90 secs standing.
LOL
This is exactly why reporting the rest as "200 meter jog" or "400 meter jog" is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS.
I have seen the way some HS runners take their "jog rest": basically standing around with hands on knees for 30 seconds after the interval, then shuffling slower than a walk around the track, then standing STILL for another minute. They might as well just walk around and forget the "jog" part. Sounds like that's your routine, which is fine. Just don't call it a 400 meter jog as recovery. Call it 3:00 of walking.
In short, tell us the damn DURATION of the rest.
lawguy wrote:
Update from the last couple of weeks...
Monday ran 4x800 off a 400 jog. Purposefully kept it relaxed on the first 2. 2:37, 2:36, 2:31, 2:32. Added 2x300, 4x200 on the end at roughly 70 second pace.
Wednesday we did a 2k and 4x1k all at 6:20 pace. Pretty relaxed workout.
Today she ran 14x400 w/ a 200 jog recovery. 76 77 77 76 74 73 73 73 73 73 72 74 76 74. I was very encouraged by this one. I kept it relaxed by design on the first 4 and then let her open it up a bit. She looked very really strong and probably could have done 3-4 more at 75 or faster.
I've decided to let her go ahead and run a 1600 time trial next week on either tuesday or friday depending on the weather.
I coached a sub 4:50 girl (outdoor) and she would have her hands full with that 14x400 workout. A difference is that she'd run the tempo workouts at 5:50 pace.
I think your athlete will go 4:55 or better depending on the track.
Have the workouts been indoors or out? And what type of track will she compete on? If you posted that info I mised it.
Good luck to her. Let us know how it goes.
rupp-certified saladbar wrote:
BR wrote:OK...I gotta call you out on this one. I don't believe she did this workout.
lawguy wrote:
I should have been more specific on the recovery...Straight into a 400 jog after each and then 60-90 secs standing.
LOL
This is exactly why reporting the rest as "200 meter jog" or "400 meter jog" is COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS.
I have seen the way some HS runners take their "jog rest": basically standing around with hands on knees for 30 seconds after the interval, then shuffling slower than a walk around the track, then standing STILL for another minute. They might as well just walk around and forget the "jog" part. Sounds like that's your routine, which is fine. Just don't call it a 400 meter jog as recovery. Call it 3:00 of walking.
In short, tell us the damn DURATION of the rest.
There's definitely no reason to be rude and you have no idea what you are talking about. I know what a recovery jog is and that's exactly what my kids do. They don't walk, shuffle or stand around for 3 minutes. The girl that is the subject of this thread actually does her recovery jogs at a relatively brisk pace. (1:10-1:15 for the 200 jog) The total recovery time on the 400 workout yesterday was 2:15-2:30.
Since it appears you don't have anything to offer, why don't you find another thread where you can berate people who are trying to carry on a constructive discussion?
SubFIVE wrote:
lawguy wrote:Update from the last couple of weeks...
Monday ran 4x800 off a 400 jog. Purposefully kept it relaxed on the first 2. 2:37, 2:36, 2:31, 2:32. Added 2x300, 4x200 on the end at roughly 70 second pace.
Wednesday we did a 2k and 4x1k all at 6:20 pace. Pretty relaxed workout.
Today she ran 14x400 w/ a 200 jog recovery. 76 77 77 76 74 73 73 73 73 73 72 74 76 74. I was very encouraged by this one. I kept it relaxed by design on the first 4 and then let her open it up a bit. She looked very really strong and probably could have done 3-4 more at 75 or faster.
I've decided to let her go ahead and run a 1600 time trial next week on either tuesday or friday depending on the weather.
I coached a sub 4:50 girl (outdoor) and she would have her hands full with that 14x400 workout. A difference is that she'd run the tempo workouts at 5:50 pace.
I think your athlete will go 4:55 or better depending on the track.
Have the workouts been indoors or out? And what type of track will she compete on? If you posted that info I mised it.
Good luck to her. Let us know how it goes.
That's fantastic that you had a sub 4:50 girl. What was her 3200/5k pr? I assume they were extremely strong given that 5:50 tempo pace. What was the length on those tempos? What kind of 400 speed did she have? My girl definitely doesn't have anywhere close to the aerobic ability of your girl, but her leg speed is good enough to where 70-75 pace is pretty relaxed turnover wise for her. After this race and a break, hopefully a couple of months of base work will get her aerobic fitness to the next level. We've already added a couple of days a week of cross training in the pool which is giving her about 2 hours of extra cardio work. I'm hesitant to let her run a lot of miles because she was literally running less than 5 miles a week last spring training for the 1-2-4.
The workouts have all been on an outdoor track. The race is going to be on a really fast banked indoor track.
lawguy wrote:
Thanks for your input. I'm open to advice from anyone, but those who have had success with elite girls is definitely appreciated. In the last few weeks, we've done a couple of workouts that incorporated stuff at a little slower than 5k pace. (ie mile and a half at 620 pace, 2ks, 1k repeats) Those workouts have been relatively relaxed compared to the more intense workouts I've outlined above. I hadn't thought about doing anything at 3200 pace though. She's never run a 32 and as of right now, the plan this spring is just to focus on the 8/16. In the past with my guys, I've always trained them as either 8/16 or 16/32. Obviously the 16/32 guys could run an 8 off of that, but I don't typically run my 8/16 guy up to the 32. Would you still suggest running some workouts at 32 pace just for the strength aspect or do you think the tempo work would be sufficient as high end aerobic work?
3200 pace or even 5k pace is great for developing VO2 max. I realize that is a dirty word for a lot of folks on here, so let's just say, it helps your kids run fast without incurring too much fatigue.
The girl that I had go sub 5 (and 10:30 for 3200) didn't run faster than 3200 pace very often. She was very much a strength based sub 5 girl (never broke 2:22 for 800 either). She did run more mile paced stuff as a junior (the year she broke 5) than she did as a senior (the year she ran 10:30, which was U.S. #8)
A non elite girl I coached dropped her PR from 2:43 to 2:26 in one season. Her off season had very little work at paces faster than 1 mile goal pace. Her first 800 of the season was 2:34, a 9 second improvement from the previous year. She had been a 400 800 type as a soph, but ran cross as a junior and continued with strength type stuff through the off season. She had 62 second 400 speed to begin with, so giving her some staying power was high on my list of things to do with her during the off season. A staple workout with her was 4 miles progressive, but untimed, followed by 3-4 x 600 @ slightly slower than current mile PR (which was really slow, would probably be closer to 3200 pace for a more aerobically developed kid). Easy 400m recovery jog.
What was her 3200/5k pr? I assume they were extremely strong given that 5:50 tempo pace. What was the length on those tempos? What kind of 400 speed did she have? My girl definitely doesn't have anywhere close to the aerobic ability of your girl, but her leg speed is good enough to where 70-75 pace is pretty relaxed turnover wise for her. After this race and a break, hopefully a couple of months of base work will get her aerobic fitness to the next level. We've already added a couple of days a week of cross training in the pool which is giving her about 2 hours of extra cardio work. I'm hesitant to let her run a lot of miles because she was literally running less than 5 miles a week last spring training for the 1-2-4.
The workouts have all been on an outdoor track. The race is going to be on a really fast banked indoor track.
My athlete ran 58/2:11/10:30 and 17:45 for 5k XC (5 races under 18:00). I'd say her best event was the 1600 and she ran in tough competition each week so her performances reflect her best effort except for the 3200. She only ran that twice last season for points. 10:20 was probably her real potential.
CoachB wrote:
lawguy wrote:Thanks for your input. I'm open to advice from anyone, but those who have had success with elite girls is definitely appreciated. In the last few weeks, we've done a couple of workouts that incorporated stuff at a little slower than 5k pace. (ie mile and a half at 620 pace, 2ks, 1k repeats) Those workouts have been relatively relaxed compared to the more intense workouts I've outlined above. I hadn't thought about doing anything at 3200 pace though. She's never run a 32 and as of right now, the plan this spring is just to focus on the 8/16. In the past with my guys, I've always trained them as either 8/16 or 16/32. Obviously the 16/32 guys could run an 8 off of that, but I don't typically run my 8/16 guy up to the 32. Would you still suggest running some workouts at 32 pace just for the strength aspect or do you think the tempo work would be sufficient as high end aerobic work?
3200 pace or even 5k pace is great for developing VO2 max. I realize that is a dirty word for a lot of folks on here, so let's just say, it helps your kids run fast without incurring too much fatigue.
The girl that I had go sub 5 (and 10:30 for 3200) didn't run faster than 3200 pace very often. She was very much a strength based sub 5 girl (never broke 2:22 for 800 either). She did run more mile paced stuff as a junior (the year she broke 5) than she did as a senior (the year she ran 10:30, which was U.S. #8)
A non elite girl I coached dropped her PR from 2:43 to 2:26 in one season. Her off season had very little work at paces faster than 1 mile goal pace. Her first 800 of the season was 2:34, a 9 second improvement from the previous year. She had been a 400 800 type as a soph, but ran cross as a junior and continued with strength type stuff through the off season. She had 62 second 400 speed to begin with, so giving her some staying power was high on my list of things to do with her during the off season. A staple workout with her was 4 miles progressive, but untimed, followed by 3-4 x 600 @ slightly slower than current mile PR (which was really slow, would probably be closer to 3200 pace for a more aerobically developed kid). Easy 400m recovery jog.
I definitely agree with you on the VO2 max stuff. Obviously it doesn't come across based on the workouts I've outlined, but I'm definitely more of a strength based coach. With my guys, I've had a lot of success doing 5k or tempo mile and mile and a half repeats during the winter. Even with her focusing on the 8/16, we'll definitely do a lot of that type of stuff to buid build aerobic capacity.
What kind of 400 speed did your sub 450 girl have? I know you said she was a strength runner, but I assume she still had to have some fairly solid leg speed.
She was not sub 4:50. She was 4:59 and 10:30. The fastest she ever ran a 400 was probably 63 on a relay split. The U.S. #8 was in the 3200 (year 2000, weak by todays standards) not in the mile.