Wouldn't you pick Coe from that group as he has two Olympic titles at 1500m and set 1500m and mile world records and had an elite career that stretched over 10 years?
He could have had 3 Olympic titles if was healthy in 1988 which wound up being a sub par year in the 1500.
He did come back and run well in 1989.
There is only one serious answer to this question: Hicham El Guerrouj. But I don't like it to be so specific in distance running. We all know that - for example - Sebastian Coe has run just a few 1500m/Mile races against the clock. He primarily was an 800m runner. Or Said Aouita who also run the other distances. Same for many other all-time greats: Cram, Ovett. They also ran other distances.
El Guerrouj totally concentrates on the 1500m/Mile (apart from 2003/2004).
But still his number of super fast times is astonishing. And in 1996 Morceli was far from unbeatable; without the fall, El Guerrouj probably would have won.
Hard to say that El Geurrouj would probably have beaten Morceli in the 1996 Olympics if he didn't fall.
Morceli was the reigning World Champion and hadn't lost a race in 4 years.
He set the World Record the year before.
He had a devastating kick.
El G ran up on Morceli and went down.
It wasn't an unfortunate accident, it was bad running that caused the fall.
El G did beat Morceli that year and finished with the world lead in 3:29 flat.
He went on to win WC's next year with Morceli 4th.
There is no solid evidence that El G would have probably out-kicked Morceli on that day.
Maybe, but not probably.
toro wrote:
There is no solid evidence that El G would have probably out-kicked Morceli on that day.
Maybe, but not probably.
Morceli in '96 was far from his '95 form; El Guerroj has the better time in '96 and he beat Morceli by almost a second. Apart from his fall, El Guerrouj was unbeaten in '96. And Morceli has had a lot more pressure then young El Guerrouj. Even Cacho maybe would have beaten Morceli without the fall.
herb elliott. strange but true: i'm undefeated against el g (2-0). obviously no one can say that about elliott in his open career...
socalcush wrote:
herb elliott. strange but true: i'm undefeated against el g (2-0). obviously no one can say that about elliott in his open career...
What are you talking?!?
But I can't hear the Herb-Elliot-argument anymore. There are billions of people who never lost an 1500m/Mile race - for the simple reason they have never run any. Elliott was the best Miler in two seasons - he can't be ranked as all-time Nr. 1. That's not a question.
socalcush wrote:
herb elliott. strange but true: i'm undefeated against el g (2-0). obviously no one can say that about elliott in his open career...
There wasn't anyone who beat El G twice and never lost to him.
Another vote for El G. There's really no discussion to be had at the 1500/mile distance.
Undoubtably Sir Roger Bannister. He is only person to ever break 4 minutes in the mile, a feat that will probably never be repeated.
EL G has been the most successful due to running in a period where they ran World Champs every 2 years and when EPO use was at its most widespread and undetectable. The only athlete that can compare to number of world titles and fast times was Morceli, because he was competing in the same era.
If they'd had World Champs every year since WW2 then Elliott would have won a couple, Snell, Ryan and others.
Ovett won 2 World Cup golds 4 years apart and these should be viewed as equivalent to World Champ golds if you include these in any assessment.
Coe would probably have won 2 in 79/81 and Cram would likely have added to his inaugural World Champ gold in 83 with another in 85 had they been held biannually.
Any real assessment of greatest ever has to look at the things that were available to all athletes ever, and that means Olympics and world records first and foremost. The opportunities to win outdoor and indoor World golds just didn't exist prior to the last 20 years or so.
With this in mind there are 4 athletes whose actual achievements put them above the rest, namely Elliott, Coe, Morceli & EL G.
They are the only ones to have won Olympic gold and set world records at both 1500 & Mile.
Elliott won 1 Olympic gold and set 2 1500 world records and 1 Mile wr.
Coe won 2 Olympic golds and set 1 1500 wr & 3 Mile wrs.
Morceli won 1 Olympic gold (after failing when favorite in 92) & set 2 1500 wrs and 1 Mile wr.
EL G won 1 Olympic gold after 3 attempts. He set 1 1500 wr & 1 Mile WR
Snell, Ryun, Ovett, Cram & Lagat are probably the next tier of greats, but all are either missing an Olympic title or a WR in one or other of the 2 distances.
After Olympic medals & world records, then of course the number of years at the top and the number of fast times come into play, as do other medals in minor events. But even these are subject to the time in which they competed. Running fast times behind rabbits was the vogue in the 90's, while in earlier periods there wasn't the same desire for fast times every week.
For me it has to be between Coe & EL G. Coe, because he is the only man ever to win 2 1500 golds and had to beat 2 other greats, Ovett & Cram to do so, and because he broke more 1500/mile wrs than the other 3, despite remaining primarily an 800m runner.
EL G because of the number of years he was ranked no 1 and his number of fast times. However, people do forget that he was beaten twice on the biggest stage of the Olympics, which must go somewhat against him. I also believe his times were enhanced by peds, as were many he competed against. He was clearly the best of the bunch in the 90's, but without EPO I think we can add at least 2 seconds to his best times at 1500 & mile.
Therefore final list based on Olympics, WR, ranking points, number of fast times, longevity, win/loss record against peers....
Coe
EL G
Morceli
Elliott/ Ovett ~( yes I know he didn't win Olympic gold at 1500, but I put him
alongside Elliott due to more wrs and 45 unbroken wins)
Cram/Ryun
Snell
Walker
Lagat
In 2004 all the mile world record holders as far back as Bannister met up for a special commemorative dinner. Ovett was the only person who didn't attend. They asked all the record holders there, as well as other athletic journalists, who they thought was the greatest miler of them all, and the athlete with the most votes was Coe. This was obviously in the May before EL G finally won his Olympic gold, so maybe the result would have been different a few months later. But I think the verdict of your fellow peers is probably the most important.
Rose tinted spectacles wrote:
In 2004 all the mile world record holders as far back as Bannister met up for a special commemorative dinner. Ovett was the only person who didn't attend. They asked all the record holders there, as well as other athletic journalists, who they thought was the greatest miler of them all, and the athlete with the most votes was Coe. This was obviously in the May before EL G finally won his Olympic gold, so maybe the result would have been different a few months later. But I think the verdict of your fellow peers is probably the most important.
Bannister answered without hesitation "Jim Ryun"
check your facts
also, this meeting was in london, it is really a surprise that the brit journalists in attendance were fond of their wonder-boy coe?
P.S. Morceli, El G, Lagat et. all are dirty drug cheats who do not belong is any list besides one for cheaters
clearing the bs up wrote:
Rose tinted spectacles wrote:In 2004 all the mile world record holders as far back as Bannister met up for a special commemorative dinner. Ovett was the only person who didn't attend. They asked all the record holders there, as well as other athletic journalists, who they thought was the greatest miler of them all, and the athlete with the most votes was Coe. This was obviously in the May before EL G finally won his Olympic gold, so maybe the result would have been different a few months later. But I think the verdict of your fellow peers is probably the most important.
Bannister answered without hesitation "Jim Ryun"
check your facts
also, this meeting was in london, it is really a surprise that the brit journalists in attendance were fond of their wonder-boy coe?
I never quoted what Bannister said. I quoted what the general consensus was, which was published in Athletics Weekly at the time. So my "facts" are based on what was actually put to print, not the views of one athlete.
The journalists there were not writers from British tabloid rags, we're talking about members of the Association of Track & Filed Statisticians, who have published books and witnessed at first hand many of the athletes' present exploits over many decades.
I agree that EL G & Lagat were very likely on drugs and probably Morceli too, but without evidence one has to assess them on what they actually achieved.
Ryun would obviously have been higher had he won Olympic gold, something he didn't achieve, despite 3 attempts, albeit his first was when very young. He only had 2 great seasons, whereas other who I'd put higher on the list had more.
Rose tinted spectacles wrote:
For me it has to be between Coe & EL G. Coe, because he is the only man ever to win 2 1500 golds and had to beat 2 other greats, Ovett & Cram to do so, and because he broke more 1500/mile wrs than the other 3, despite remaining primarily an 800m runner.
EL G because of the number of years he was ranked no 1 and his number of fast times. However, people do forget that he was beaten twice on the biggest stage of the Olympics, which must go somewhat against him. I also believe his times were enhanced by peds, as were many he competed against. He was clearly the best of the bunch in the 90's, but without EPO I think we can add at least 2 seconds to his best times at 1500 & mile.
I agree with this (except for the PED comment). Had El G not inched past Lagat in 04, he'd have a strong record AGAINST being the GOAT of the 1500m. What counts is when it's on the line, and he was beaten the first 2 biggest races of his life. That said, to come back against Lagat like he did was awesome. So it's probably a wash there, imo.
Coe winning the OG twice is a big deal (just like it's a big deal that he did NOT win the 800m). What matters is what you leave on the track, not what might've happened, and 2 golds is a superb effort.
Both of them were fantastic. Elliot similarly so.
I don't buy the PED comments on El G, nor do I think they are relevant to anything. El G didn't test +ve for anything that I know of, so it's silly to lower him in our estimation. El G was clearly the dominant 1500m of his time, and that includes running against some phenomenal athletes. If Webb ran 1.46 clean, do you really think El G couldn't go 1:43? Or, more accurately, if Webb ran 1:46 clean, do you REALLY think someone with El G's talent using PED's wouldn't go a whole lot faster than 1:43? Webb ran 3:53 in high school, fer crying out loud. He was a great runner, but I don't believe a world record by one of the world's greatest ever 1500m runners, enhanced by PED's, would only be 10 seconds faster than that.
watch this video and ignore the title. I think it shows who the best 1500m runner of all time is.
In a recent BBC documentary Coe said he had the most respect for El G and that El G would have given him quite the challenge. He was implying that he could have beaten El G had they met at their prime.
In my mind - the 1981 Coe could have beaten even the 1998-9 El G. My reasoning is that Coe's speed was just too fast. 1:41 and 45 PRs are not times El G could have run. Coe - years past his peak/prime still ran 3:29 1500m in a badly paced race.
One could only speculate what Coe could have done with a nice mondo track, better spikes, and good pace makers (let's not forget El G had very good pacemakers in his WR attempts).
My final point here is Coe's last 50-70 meter kick was fantastic. Watch it on youtube.
Everyone that could have been better or proven to be better than El G never capitalized on it.
Morcelli won but ElG fell during the race
Lagat finished .26 seconds off the record and never beat ELG in a sub 3:29 effort.
Ngeny won Gold and then was injured shortly after.
Kiplagat ran in a different era.
ita over wrote:
In a recent BBC documentary Coe said he had the most respect for El G
No
He said that he would have been a "bloody handful"
No doubt, a roided, epo'd El G is a handful
clearing the bs up wrote:
Trollist wrote:El Guerrouj is arguably the most drugged ever when it comes to athletes in any track discipline longer than 800m.
agreed
right up there with flojo
Flojo is pretty low on the list for drugged track athletes competing in 800m+ events I'd imagine
raw dog wrote:
Flojo is pretty low on the list for drugged track athletes competing in 800m+ events I'd imagine
idiot
bolded most drugged ever
I think it is between 3 guys..no question. El G. and then if you can believe it..EL G. Then of course EL G.! Its a toss up.