also, guppy, with all due respect, i think the coach is looking for a method of finding the ability to kick with 200 to go rather than fade, the speed may already be there, but the runner just can't call upon it because he/she is too tired.
also, guppy, with all due respect, i think the coach is looking for a method of finding the ability to kick with 200 to go rather than fade, the speed may already be there, but the runner just can't call upon it because he/she is too tired.
Usually in a mile, if the last 200 is the fastest, then the pace must have been slow up to that point. In a hard mile/1500, the winner is slowing down in the last 100.
I think you need to concentrate on developing strength. Most kids I see that fade in a race is lacking strength(not weight room strength) I achieve this by mixing my workouts. Short tempo followed by 200s or 300s. Ladders, strides, Plyometrics and more.
good luck
You shouldn't cringe since what they are getting at is the all or nothing principal with respect to fast twitch motor neuron stimulation. Either the threshold is met or it isn't. Neuromuscular facilitation is a legit part of the discussion as is the notion that if you can't get to the crucial part of the race ready to overcome the discomfort, your speed enhancement won't be of any use.
midwesterner coach wrote:
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Thanks, that's good info.
I do some creatine phosphate work with them, especially early in the season. However, I guess I kind of trail off on that as the season progresses. In fact, I actually thought that creatine phosphate energy was only useful as early speed and unavailable late in the race. As far as the neuromuscular training goes, we do a lot of drills, and at the end of practice 3 times a week we do extended sets of "knee-ups" (fast high knees standing in place) that I thought fulfilled that....maybe it isn't enough.
I will look into this further. Thanks for the suggestion.
And to the guy that called me "bro": You're an idiot. Pay attention next time you attend your sub 100 level remedial English course.
I guess I didn't explain things very clearly. You're not trying to train the CP energy system at all. That energy system doesn't really matter for distance races. You're trying to get in as much running at near max speed while maintaining good form. The only way to do this is avoid producing a lot of lactate as both speed and form will suffer if there is a buildup of lactate. The only way to run close to max speed without building up a lot of lactate is through short reps with long recoveries. The reason short reps don't build up a lot of lactate are 1) because the amount of lactate produced in that short of time can be easily cleared and metabolized and 2) because the CP system is producing a large proportion of ATP which reduces the amount of ATP produced through anaerobic glycolysisis (which produces lactate). Sorry if that's hard to follow. I might not be explaining things very well. So again, don't think of it as training the CP system, think of it as trying to get in a lot of time running fast without getting fatigued.
cripes wrote:
Guppy wrote:Most coaches and athletes I know completely ignore neuromuscular training, aka alactic sprinting. I cringe every time I hear someone say they're going to work on their speed by doing 400m reps.
And I cringe every time someone refers to speed work as 'neuromuscular training'
Guppy, all training is neuromuscular. All movement is neuromuscular.
This is what this type of training has been labeled in the sources I've read. I think it's a good term for the training since it is essentially training for adaptations at the neuromuscular level. This type of training improves the synchronous firing of motor units, increases the number of motor units recruited, and can increase ability to contract muscle by increasing the number of synapses and neurotransmitters stored in the terminal buttons. (If we have a neuroscientist in the house and I'm wrong on any of this, please call me out as it's been a while since I've studied this and a friend is currently borrowing my Neuroscience textbook). It's somewhat analogous to max-strength training for weigh lifters. One can increase strength (through adaptations to the nervous system) without any gains in size. This is why novice lifters make such large strength gains once they start lifting despite not putting on much (if any) muscle.
Since we're on that topic, I suppose you have a problem calling weight training "strength" training since any activity at all is technically strength training since lack of muscle activity reduces strength.
bangalangadanga wrote:
also, guppy, with all due respect, i think the coach is looking for a method of finding the ability to kick with 200 to go rather than fade, the speed may already be there, but the runner just can't call upon it because he/she is too tired.
81runner wrote:I think you need to concentrate on developing strength. Most kids I see that fade in a race is lacking strength(not weight room strength) I achieve this by mixing my workouts. Short tempo followed by 200s or 300s. Ladders, strides, Plyometrics and more.
This comes up a lot and causes a lot of confusion. We are talking about two different things which should not be confused with one another. If a runner cannot kick at the end of a race because they are fading, that simply means they don't have the fitness to race at that pace and kick off that pace. That really says nothing about their "kick." If that's the problem obviously the answer is to just get in better shape through other forms of training. The OP was asking about how to develop blazing finishing speed. It doesn't matter how fit a runner is, if they can't run a 25.0 200m, they're not going to be able to blaze home at the end of a race no matter how fresh they are. I am another example of this. My sophomore year of high school I was very aerobically fit but had very poor sprint speed as we did not work on it at all. Both my races at state were slow until the last lap, which I then kicked home at in 61.x and was outsprinted by another runner in both races. It didn't matter how fresh I was; I simply did not have the sprint speed to run fast, be it at the end of a race or whatever. The next year (in which I dropped my 800m time from 2:00 to 1:56) I worked on raw sprint speed a lot, and not only did it improve my general fitness, but I could kick much faster even in faster races because I had improved my sprinting ability from about 13.3 for 100m to 12.0 for 100m. However, I agree that all the sprint speed in the world means nothing if the runner is not in position to use it, and the ability to be in position to use it in a race comes from other forms of training, which is why it's not important to place a large emphasis on improving max sprint speed in distance runners unless every other aspect of fitness has already been maximized.
bupm
Guppy wrote:
This is what this type of training has been labeled in the sources I've read. I think it's a good term for the training since it is essentially training for adaptations at the neuromuscular level. This type of training improves the synchronous firing of motor units, increases the number of motor units recruited, and can increase ability to contract muscle by increasing the number of synapses and neurotransmitters stored in the terminal buttons. (If we have a neuroscientist in the house and I'm wrong on any of this, please call me out as it's been a while since I've studied this and a friend is currently borrowing my Neuroscience textbook).
ALL movement is neuromuscular. Endurance training involves recruiting different combinations of motor units repeatedly, for the duration of the exercize, leading to improvements in the ability to hold our pace for longer.
Hopefully Guppy, you will join me in cringing at the way the words 'neuromuscular training' have been applied only to power training.
First, as was said, you have to have a certain degree of speed to begin with in order to kick. I never had a problem kicking, partly because I wanted the damn thing over as fast as possible because it hurt, but mostly because I always felt that the 'kicking muscles' were fresh. Kicking an 800 is much different than kicking a 200 but with 200 to go, the muscles I'm going to use are fresh and it really doesn't matter if I can breathe or not. Those muscles are all fast twitch, anaerobic and really hadn't been used yet if it's a distance race.