As of now Geb but that could change if KB wins in London and continues his success for the next few years. The range that Geb had was absolutely ridiculous though so until KB runs a 2:03 marathon it will be hard to rule out Geb.
As of now Geb but that could change if KB wins in London and continues his success for the next few years. The range that Geb had was absolutely ridiculous though so until KB runs a 2:03 marathon it will be hard to rule out Geb.
Sleeping Policeman wrote:
...the GOAT shouldn't just be determined by times or else the discussion is simply which is the best world record.
Precisely. The question should be resolved by who was the most dominant against all available competition.
So: Paavo Nurmi. For much of his career he was on a whole other level than the best international runners. Nine OG golds, etc. Winning the Olympic 1,500 and 5,000 ~one hour apart.
NOTE that I am only considering distance running and no other fields of endeavor.
Looking at competition/performance vs peers and World Rankings (+WR + Medals), these are the GOATs per distance -
800m, Wilson Kipketer (DEN)
1500m, Hicham El Guerrouj (MAR)
3000m, Daniel Komen (KEN)
3000mSC, Moses Kiptanui (KEN)
5000m, Haile Gebrselassie (ETH)
10000m, Kenenisa Bekele (ETH)
Cross Country, Kenenisa Bekele (ETH)
Amazing that Coe wasn't as dominant as people think. Only 4 x World Rank # 1 in 800m (WR + 2 OG Silver) and only 2 x in 1500m # 1 World Rank (WR + 2 OG Gold. Compare that to 7 x World Rank # 1 for El Guerrouj (CWR + OG Gold/Silver + 4 x WC Gold, 1 WC Silver; 2 x iWC Gold). El G was just more dominant than the likes of Cram (faster than Coe over 1500m and more World Rankings than Coe) and Coe.
The biggest challenger to this list are guys like Emil Zatopek (10000m); Paul Tergat (XC); Norrredine Morceli (1500m); Kenenisa Bekele (5000m).
it's Muhammad Ali
Over all surfaces Paul Tergat should be a consideration.
Simply amazing
Of course there are the old timers like Nurmi and Zatopek, then Viren.
Now we have Geb and KB. But don't forget ElG's Olympic double in 2004. Unlikely to happen again in our lifetimes, if ever.
Owens and Lewis for men.
Distance running is a one-trick kind of thing. To be GOAT, you have to do more than one trick.
Among decathletes, I like Thorpe and Thompson.
Added to these lists will be Bolt if he will ever succeed at LJ, and Eaton if he will win big in the deca.
Ywo wrote:
Looking at competition/performance vs peers and World Rankings (+WR + Medals), these are the GOATs per distance -
800m, Wilson Kipketer (DEN)
1500m, Hicham El Guerrouj (MAR)
3000m, Daniel Komen (KEN)
3000mSC, Moses Kiptanui (KEN)
5000m, Haile Gebrselassie (ETH)
10000m, Kenenisa Bekele (ETH)
Cross Country, Kenenisa Bekele (ETH)
Amazing that Coe wasn't as dominant as people think. Only 4 x World Rank # 1 in 800m (WR + 2 OG Silver) and only 2 x in 1500m # 1 World Rank (WR + 2 OG Gold. Compare that to 7 x World Rank # 1 for El Guerrouj (CWR + OG Gold/Silver + 4 x WC Gold, 1 WC Silver; 2 x iWC Gold). El G was just more dominant than the likes of Cram (faster than Coe over 1500m and more World Rankings than Coe) and Coe.
The decision to rank Coe No. 2 at 1500m the years he won his 2 Olympic titles (80 & 84) was a contentious one to say the least at the time. It was mainly due to the relatively few times he ran the distance those years.
In 80 he was unbeaten, beat Ovett when it mattered the most and won the next most important race, Zurich, missing the WR by 0.1. Those were his only international races at the distance. The decision to rank Ovett No. 1 by T&FN was based on his Mile WR and 1500 WR, despite being beaten by 2 men. In the UK merit rankings the order was reversed, with Coe at 1 & Ovett at 2. So in 1980 Ovett was ranked only 2 in the UK but no 1 in the World!
Similar story in 84. Coe won the Olympics convincingly and the Zurich race, running the 2nd and 3rd fastest times of the year. His only other race of note at the distance was the AAA, where he narrowly lost to Elliott after coming back from injury. Aouita ran a few more races on the circuit and stayed undefeated, hence his No. 1 ranking.
Despite all this, Coe was an 800/1500 runner, and his combined world ranking points over both distances (136) was more than EL G's total score for 1500 & 5k combined (113).
In terms of time, especially over 800m Coe was at least as dominant over his peers from 79 - 84 as Kipketer was at any time in his career. His record at the Olympics over 800 was also better than Kipketer, who won most of his titles in bi-annual World Champs that didn't exist during Coe's era.
If anything Snell had a better Championship record over 800 than both!
deanouk wrote:
GOAT overall distance runner on all surfaces - Geb.
Bekele owns Geb in cross country. So That might make up for Bekele's short road career so far. Might even be better. How does a guy win two races on the same day against the best runners in the world who are only running one of the races. Ridiculous.
All surfaces? Please. Bekele has yet to focus on the roads (though he opened very well with that 27:49 10K on that difficult 10K road course), and he has 11 WCCC gold medals, Geb has none. How can you say he's the greatest on all surfaces? Road and track sure, but he was never able to transfer his dominance to CC. I'd say Tergat is better on all surfaces, he has 5 WCCC golds, 2 Olympic 10k silvers, had a WR on the roads and several WMM titles.
'What other athlete could even think of being #1 in the world (Per T&F news) in the 10,000 one year, and the 800 in another.'
Ranking him 800 No one in that year was a joke
He was a great 1500m and even better 5,000m guy but at the end of the day everyone what the blue ribbon event in the 84 olympics was and he ducked it
Samuel Wanjiru
Just for clarification for those new to the sport, Bekele did not debut on the roads with that 27:49 10K. He placed 3rd in a road 15K in his debut.
Right now I think it's very close between Geb and Bekele, but I would give the slight nod to Geb. Very slight though. Bekele's dominance in XC was mighty impressive.
As others have already decided, Bekele basically needs one more major victory (Olympic or WC gold) to edge into the lead over Geb. If Bekele wins gold in London, the GOAT title is no longer up for debate.
After seeing the below, you now realize why Geb is the GOAT. He is represented in virtually every distance, while Bekele has never been able to break into the 3000m.
800m-
David Rudisha (KEN) and Wilson Kipeter (DEN) have 4 of the 10 fastest all-time performances each... the only other two athletes in the top 10 are Sebastian Coe (GBR) and Joaquim Cruz (BRA).
1500m/Mile-
Hicham El Guerrouj (MAR) has 7 of the top 10 performances of all-time in both the 1500m and the Mile! The only two other performers are Bernard Lagat (KEN) and Nourredine Morceli (ALG) in the 1500m, and Morceli and Noah Ngeny (KEN) in the Mile.
3000m-
Daniel Komen (KEN) has 5 of the top 10 performances of all-time, which includes the single most fantastic performance of all-time with his 7:20.67 WR. The other performers are Haile Gebrselassie (2 of top 10), Morecli, and convicted doper, Ali Saidi Sief (ALG)
5000m-
Gebrselassie and Komen each have 3 of the top 10 performances of all-time. Kenenisa Bekele (ETH) has 2/10, while Eliud Kipchoge (KEN) and Sileshi Sihine (ETH) round out the all-time list.
10,000m-
Kenenisa Bekele owns 4 of the top 10 performances of all-time, including the WR. Gebrselassie owns 3/10, while Paul Tergat (KEN), Nicholas Kemboi (KEN), and Abebe Dinkesa (ETH) round out the list.
Marathon-
Haile Gebrselassie owns 3 of the top 10 fastest marathons of all-time! Patrick Makau (KEN) has 2/10. Notable is former WR-hodler Tergat.
But the goat shouldn't be based on just who has run the fastest or had the most times in the top 10 lists for each event! If that were the case then the current world record holder for each distance would be the goat. It is based on championship record, world rankings, longevity, impact, head to head v peers and times/world records.
People like Geb, bekele, el g, etc are at a distinct advantage for several reasons, not least that they competed in an era where there were world champs every 2 years outdoors and indoors, and when there was a culture on the circuit when every race had pace setters running at world record pace week in, week out. Not to mention those halcyon days when one could take epo without any fear of being caught!
In previous eras it was a lot more about beating the world's best every 4 years at the Olympics. There were very few other opportunities for them to shine.
