Here is how to kill them in a less painful way:
http://trevorcorson.tumblr.com/post/262203493/how-to-cook-a-lobster-humanely
It really does seem crazy to boil something alive. I'd never do it.
Here is how to kill them in a less painful way:
http://trevorcorson.tumblr.com/post/262203493/how-to-cook-a-lobster-humanely
It really does seem crazy to boil something alive. I'd never do it.
LacrossePlayer wrote:
It consented. If the lobster didn't want to be eaten, it wouldn't have been so tasty. It deserved to be eaten walking around that deliciously.
Exactly, they deserve it.
Lobsters are overtly yummy creatures.
Of course, having a relationship with a lobster is complicated for even the best of us. Take Homer Simpson for example and his pet Pinchy...the lobster. Sorry, this is the best clip I could find.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Un7nBbSet0&feature=related
dumb wrote:
Mr. Obvious wrote:You think getting it drunk first makes it OK?
+1
People tend to think of boiling a lobster as cruel because of the high pitched noise they let off when they're dropped into the pot.
This is often mistaken for a scream, when in reality it's just the sound of the expanding air being released from the shell at high pressure.
The lobster is essentially killed instantaneously from shock when it goes in, so it's not really a more cruel way of cooking it.
Any professional chef has halved more live lobsters than boiled. Large chef's knife through the head, even faster.
That doesn't kill them. They have ganglia controlling various aspects of their behavior. The head ganglia doesn't control the tail for instance.
chef wrote:
Any professional chef has halved more live lobsters than boiled. Large chef's knife through the head, even faster.
Neither "trollism" nor "chef" are correct. All of you need to read the Gourmet article posted earlier in the thread.
A Lobster's brain is not centralized, so halving does not help. Lobsters’ nervous systems operate off not one but several ganglia, a.k.a. nerve bundles, which are sort of wired in series and distributed all along the lobster’s underside, from stem to stern. And disabling only the frontal ganglion does not normally result in quick death or unconsciousness.
The shock theory is bunk due to the fact that lobsters do not have the equipment for making or absorbing natural opioids like endorphins and enkephalins, which are what more advanced nervous systems use to try to handle intense pain (i.e. shock).
Also, according to marine zoologists, it usually takes lobsters between 35 and 45 seconds to die in boiling water. Anyone who has cooked one knows this. They do not die instantaneously and are far from in shock. They are clinging to the sides of the pot trying to escape the water. They come out of the container in a bit of a stupor, but come to life in an alarming way as they approach the steam of the water. It is scientifically proven that lobsters can detect a change in water as little as one degree. It is, in fact, the reason that lobsters are migratory animals. The second you have the lobster in the water, it begins to rattle and shake much like a human who was placed in boiling water.
dumb wrote:
it's an arthropod with nothing that resembles a centralized brain. why do you care how people kill and eat it?
It still feels pain so what difference does that mean?
At least admit you do not care rather attempt than show off with the information you just looked up on wiki
How do you define pain? Is a lobster sensing hot water and reflexively trying to escape feeling pain? Are there different gradations of sensing pain? -If you are nearly completely anesthetized and I prick your finger and you flinch but when you wake up you don't remember, did you feel pain? -If after brain damage you lack higher cognitive functions but withdrawal your hand from a hot surface do to signals controlled only by your spinal cord, is that pain?
A website made of GOLD wrote:
Neither "trollism" nor "chef" are correct. All of you need to read the Gourmet article posted earlier in the thread.
A Lobster's brain is not centralized, so halving does not help. Lobsters’ nervous systems operate off not one but several ganglia, a.k.a. nerve bundles, which are sort of wired in series and distributed all along the lobster’s underside, from stem to stern. And disabling only the frontal ganglion does not normally result in quick death or unconsciousness.
The shock theory is bunk due to the fact that lobsters do not have the equipment for making or absorbing natural opioids like endorphins and enkephalins, which are what more advanced nervous systems use to try to handle intense pain (i.e. shock).
Also, according to marine zoologists, it usually takes lobsters between 35 and 45 seconds to die in boiling water. Anyone who has cooked one knows this. They do not die instantaneously and are far from in shock. They are clinging to the sides of the pot trying to escape the water. They come out of the container in a bit of a stupor, but come to life in an alarming way as they approach the steam of the water. It is scientifically proven that lobsters can detect a change in water as little as one degree. It is, in fact, the reason that lobsters are migratory animals. The second you have the lobster in the water, it begins to rattle and shake much like a human who was placed in boiling water.
Aghast wrote:
How do you define pain? Is a lobster sensing hot water and reflexively trying to escape feeling pain? Are there different gradations of sensing pain?
-If you are nearly completely anesthetized and I prick your finger and you flinch but when you wake up you don't remember, did you feel pain?
-If after brain damage you lack higher cognitive functions but withdrawal your hand from a hot surface do to signals controlled only by your spinal cord, is that pain?
I'm glad you asked.
There happen to be two main criteria that most ethicists agree on for determining whether a living creature has the capacity to suffer and so has genuine interests that it may or may not be our moral duty to consider.
One is how much of the neurological hardware required for pain-experience the animal comes equipped with—nociceptors, prostaglandins, neuronal opioid receptors, etc.
The other criterion is whether the animal demonstrates behavior associated with pain. And it takes a lot of intellectual gymnastics and behaviorist hairsplitting not to see struggling, thrashing, and lid-clattering as just such pain-behavior.
A website made of GOLD wrote:
The second you have the lobster in the water, it begins to rattle and shake much like a human who was placed in boiling water.
How many humans have you boiled (or seen boiled) for you to know this?
trollism wrote:
How many humans have you boiled (or seen boiled) for you to know this?
Mind if I take this one...?
trollism wrote:
How many humans have you boiled (or seen boiled) for you to know this?
I have never seen it myself, fortunately.
Believe it or not, the practice was once rather common in Asia and Europe. There are many depictions of what would happen to the victims. One particularly gruesome account takes place in James Clavell's novel Shogun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_boilingThat doesn't answer my question. Thrashing may be a reflex like withdrawing your hand from a hot surface or flinching. Not all behavior is the same. The previous two can occur without any cognitive recognition. Are reflex behaviors signs of pain? Reflex pain responses can occur under anesthesia, during sleep or following nearly complete brain death. Some reflexes can be quite complicated like the ability of a baby to swim. I am not ready to accept that reflex responses are the same as willful action. Not all pain is the same.
A website made of GOLD wrote:
Aghast wrote:How do you define pain? Is a lobster sensing hot water and reflexively trying to escape feeling pain? Are there different gradations of sensing pain?
-If you are nearly completely anesthetized and I prick your finger and you flinch but when you wake up you don't remember, did you feel pain?
-If after brain damage you lack higher cognitive functions but withdrawal your hand from a hot surface do to signals controlled only by your spinal cord, is that pain?
I'm glad you asked.
There happen to be two main criteria that most ethicists agree on for determining whether a living creature has the capacity to suffer and so has genuine interests that it may or may not be our moral duty to consider.
One is how much of the neurological hardware required for pain-experience the animal comes equipped with—nociceptors, prostaglandins, neuronal opioid receptors, etc.
The other criterion is whether the animal demonstrates behavior associated with pain. And it takes a lot of intellectual gymnastics and behaviorist hairsplitting not to see struggling, thrashing, and lid-clattering as just such pain-behavior.
A website made of GOLD wrote:
I'm glad you asked.
There happen to be two main criteria that most ethicists agree on for determining whether a living creature has the capacity to suffer and so has genuine interests that it may or may not be our moral duty to consider.
One is how much of the neurological hardware required for pain-experience the animal comes equipped with—nociceptors, prostaglandins, neuronal opioid receptors, etc.
The other criterion is whether the animal demonstrates behavior associated with pain. And it takes a lot of intellectual gymnastics and behaviorist hairsplitting not to see struggling, thrashing, and lid-clattering as just such pain-behavior.
It senses and attempts to avoid a harmful stimulus but on the account of neurological hardware that you raise, it has no brain structure that we believe capable experiencing any conscious or emotional state that we would identify with as pain.
Aghast wrote:
That doesn't answer my question. Thrashing may be a reflex like withdrawing your hand from a hot surface or flinching. Not all behavior is the same. The previous two can occur without any cognitive recognition. Are reflex behaviors signs of pain? Reflex pain responses can occur under anesthesia, during sleep or following nearly complete brain death.
Some reflexes can be quite complicated like the ability of a baby to swim. I am not ready to accept that reflex responses are the same as willful action. Not all pain is the same.
Your questions seem rhetorical to me. We are not lobsters so we cannot answer for them. Does it hurt when I touch a hot surface and retract my hand? Yes. Just becasue my spinal cord makes that call and not my brain does not mean that it does not hurt. I totally understand that not all pain is the same. For instance, the pain & suffering associated with the death of one's child is totally different from the pain & suffering associated with breaking a leg. Does this mean that one of these doesn't count?
dumb wrote:
It senses and attempts to avoid a harmful stimulus but on the account of neurological hardware that you raise, it has no brain structure that we believe capable experiencing any conscious or emotional state that we would identify with as
pain.
Who's "we?" I, along with most marine zoologists and ethicists, disagree with you.
It's amazing the rationalization a human will engage in to settle his or her conscience.
There are a lot of reflexes involved with dying regardless of whether it is painful or not. Of those, it seems that trying to escape like the lobster does from boiling water implies not a reaction but a will to live, and a response to imminent pain. Is cognition really required to have a will to live?
Aghast wrote:
That doesn't answer my question. Thrashing may be a reflex like withdrawing your hand from a hot surface or flinching. Not all behavior is the same. The previous two can occur without any cognitive recognition.
A website made of GOLD wrote:
If a response occurs to an insult (withdrawing hand from hot stove) without registering the common perception of "pain" then is it pain? Under anesthesia you can make those responses without the cognitive pain sensation. In those cases it is not pain. On the other hand if a pain sensation is registered and felt without a real external insult (e.g., Fibromyalgia) is that pain?Pain sensation is not generated externally and is not a primary percept. It is an internally generated and displaying avoidance reflexes is not sufficient to demonstrate pain.
A website made of GOLD wrote:
Aghast wrote:That doesn't answer my question. Thrashing may be a reflex like withdrawing your hand from a hot surface or flinching. Not all behavior is the same. The previous two can occur without any cognitive recognition. Are reflex behaviors signs of pain? Reflex pain responses can occur under anesthesia, during sleep or following nearly complete brain death.
Some reflexes can be quite complicated like the ability of a baby to swim. I am not ready to accept that reflex responses are the same as willful action. Not all pain is the same.
Your questions seem rhetorical to me. We are not lobsters so we cannot answer for them. Does it hurt when I touch a hot surface and retract my hand? Yes. Just becasue my spinal cord makes that call and not my brain does not mean that it does not hurt. I totally understand that not all pain is the same. For instance, the pain & suffering associated with the death of one's child is totally different from the pain & suffering associated with breaking a leg. Does this mean that one of these doesn't count?