Can Kids Be Raised in a Gender-neutral Society? Sweden Thinks So

[quote]Glenn Beck wrote:

"One school even stopped allowing free playtime during the day because "stereotypical gender patterns are born and cemented. In free play there is hierarchy, exclusion, and the seed to bullying."

No, no, children... you must not think! Independent thought is dangerous, and therefore forbidden.[quote]

My concern is that banning recess and play time doesn't go far enough. Certainly these small children are being exposed to stereotypical gender behavior while spending time at home with their fathers and older siblings. The children need to be removed from the unhealthy, family environment and should be raised in gender-neutral government facilities. Ideally the government would begin to care for these young hens just after birth. It's the only way they stand any chance for a normal life.

I applaud Sweden's efforts to advance the human condition.

I'm currently living in Sweden and I can honestly say it's one of the cleanest, friendliest, most peaceful countries in which I've ever set foot. I have not really heard much of this before reading this article, though I don't have children, let alone much connection with small school aged children. The way the article makes it sound is a little strange, but from my view of how things work over here, it is one of those things that the media is just making a big deal out of that really isn't as big of a deal as you're lead to believe.

These stories pulled from Sweden/Netherlands/Canada/Aus etc. (pick any modern democracy) are used to rationalize the backward circumstances of the US. In theory this effort in Sweden sounds/feels alien. In practice, its pretty benign, and probably results in positive outcomes. The same with things like national healthcare, public schools that work, and gun control. In theory they can sound like a real challenge to one's freedom, but in practice, the outcomes are very enjoyable, positive, and make for a better society. Anecdotes can always be foudn to challenge this, but the numbers speak for themselves.

When I try to explain the US to outsiders, I emphasize that CHANGE is often attacked. The prevailing orthodoxy, no matter how sub-standard, is jealously defended by 25-30% of the populace, and always will be. This is the case, even if change would result in improved outcomes for the specific individual with the objection.

Male/Female=backward circumstances. Lovin the change! Progress baby progress! One has to be taught such nonsense!

This ^

In America, Ignorance is King.

Ok then... wrote:

Male/Female=backward circumstances. Lovin the change! Progress baby progress! One has to be taught such nonsense!

The belief that segregating children in sports is the natural way of things is an idea that can be challenged without destroying the fabric of society. They want to eliminate male/female bowling tournaments. That sounds pretty tame.

Gender bias cannot be eliminated, but that does not mean it does not exist...

America has higher scores than Sweden in all education categories tested(math, science, & reading).

Also, America has the best universities in the world.

When I was a young child, we had recess with insufficient supervision. Most of the boys ended up in a pigpile, while the girls played hopscotch or jumped rope. Personally, I had no interest in pig piles, so I played with the girls. That resulted in my having received some serious abuse by the boys, each of whom was trying to appear more manly than the rest--and they were only 6 years old! I think that teachers are supposed to organize children's activities throughout the school day. While some flexibility should be present during recess, it certainly was lacking and/or misdirected when I was a child over half a century ago. I'm more concerned about teachers in the good old USA dictating the dress code for graduating high school seniors than I am about teachers organizing gender-neutral activities for grade-school kids. Personally, I hope the Swedish experiment succeeds. If it does, then the gender polarization and stifling of freedom of association by young peers might be reduced. When my children were in grammar school, the teachers didn't bother to supervise either. One of the children in the class almost died because the kids were "huffing." Grammar school teachers organizing recess activities is not government mind control.

ktcole wrote:

When I was a young child, we had recess with insufficient supervision. Most of the boys ended up in a pigpile, while the girls played hopscotch or jumped rope. Personally, I had no interest in pig piles, so I played with the girls. That resulted in my having received some serious abuse by the boys, each of whom was trying to appear more manly than the rest--and they were only 6 years old!

I used to like to do a few girly things too when I was a little boy, though I was mostly a typical boy. A few of the other little boys tried picking on me about it. I smacked one of them around a little bit and that was the end of that.

Concerned Citizen, in my case, I would have had to have taken on about a dozen kids. I could expect to be jumped by a group of wise guys after school on a regular basis. Finally, I did the same thing you did, but it took five years of abuse for me to get angry enough to do it. The "smacking around" by me resulted in one kid's having a broken hand and a couple of us in detention for a week. My having resorted to the violence I sought initially to avoid solved the abuse problem, but the rage that drove me to that point will remain a deep emotional scar for life. Organized gender-neutral play activities ought to allow and encourage children to make friends of both genders, to find fun and creative ways to play together and to become inclusive and understanding, rather than polarized and judgmental. Little girls do not have "cooties." Little boys who choose not to engage in contact sports are not "girly." If Sweden is taking the lead toward elimination of early gender stereotyping, I applaud it. By the way, in junior high school, I was told I couldn't take home economics because it was a subject only for girls. I guess I wasn't supposed to raise three children as a single parent either, but I did. I didn't find parenting "girly."

Sorry if that came off as a criticism; I meant it just as a personal anecdote, not a suggestion that you should have behaved in any certain way. It certainly sucks that people wouldn't just let you be.

I don't really care about the Sweden thing - they can do what they want. IMHO, though, there is a difference between boys liking sports and pickup trucks and girls liking frilly lace and unicorns, and people being forced to do either. Most boys are going to want to do the former, and most girls are going to want to do the latter; I don't think there is any problem with that, but if someone wants to break the mold then they shouldn't be kept from doing that.

Concerned Citizen, I didn't view your post as a criticism. I thought the thread was about whether Sweden's experiment regarding gender neutrality in primary schools was a nutty idea. My first post was in response to Glenn Beck's suggestion that by the schools' insisting on gender-inclusive athletic activities was somehow governmental tyranny. My second was to demonstrate that, without proper supervision, unpleasant things happen and that adult supervision of young children should not be equated to mind control. I used my own experience to illustrate that point. Recently in the news, there has been a lot of talk about gun violence occurring as the result of bullying in the schools. Bullying certainly includes the sort of conduct I experienced as a child. I think Sweden's experiment will encourage tolerance and discourage bullying.

By the way, I'm not sure how many girls in a hypothetical vacuum would prefer frilly lace and unicorns to pickup trucks and sports and vice-versa. I think a lot of that is culturally derived. Is it nature or nurture? Children often are taught what they are supposed to like. Look at the television bombardment young children receive at the hands of toy sellers. Add to that the expressed expectation of parents concerning what girls should do and like vs. what boys should do and like and you can get some strange results, especially if parents make it clear that there's little, if any, middle ground.