requisite 400m time need for 2:18 800m

ian edwards wrote:

I don't like when people set limits on someones ability. Especially a goal that is not unreasonable at all.

I also don't like coaches.

Sorry. I was upset when I posted that.[/quote]

Fair answer. The question was a fair question. I retract the A-Hole comment since you were decent. Best to you.

for a girl running a 60-61 quarter, what kind of mile strength do you think would indicate 2:18 800m shape?

Coached a similar girl. Pr's: 60 (400 relay split), 2:17, 5:12, 11:23 (1600 & 3200).

Same thing, came from soccer ran 19 min 5k in xc, etc. but she has natural speed, just had trouble that middle 200.

At this HS age coaches need to understand that kids get stronger and faster just by getting out of bed in the morning.

You need to make sure that you understand that her 2:25 passed by months ago. She can probably run 2:18 at this moment.

Just help her get fit, work on her technique, help her learn to race and understand her event. Let her enjoy chasing goals and racing.

She would likely run the time without your help. Your job is to keep her healthy and motivated. Don't kill her dreams on the training track.

An exception is if she just put on 20 pounds coming into the bloom of womanhood. That is a little tougher to overcome.

Sub 64 split on the 4 x 4 and mid 64 in the open 400. Let the dream live, I believe she can get there this outdoor season. Find here a 200 hill to do repeats on, work on her speed, close out a 20-30 minute fartlek run with 300 brisk (51-54) 200 relaxed recovery (60) 300 "all-out" (<50)

Good luck and keep us informed of her progress!

Finally, some wisdom on Lets Run. Very well said.

malacoochie wrote:

At this HS age coaches need to understand that kids get stronger and faster just by getting out of bed in the morning.

You need to make sure that you understand that her 2:25 passed by months ago. She can probably run 2:18 at this moment.

Just help her get fit, work on her technique, help her learn to race and understand her event. Let her enjoy chasing goals and racing.

She would likely run the time without your help. Your job is to keep her healthy and motivated. Don't kill her dreams on the training track.

An exception is if she just put on 20 pounds coming into the bloom of womanhood. That is a little tougher to overcome.

sub2half wrote:

for a girl running a 60-61 quarter, what kind of mile strength do you think would indicate 2:18 800m shape?

Probably 540 or so?

lol what?

i hate hearing about people who 'have no speed' or who are 'aerobic monsters'. yep. congratulations, you found a girl w/ 100% distribution of slow twitch muscle fibers.

Some kids don't run well at 800m, even if physically they seem to have the ability to do so.

HS girl - 63sec 400m, 4.36 1500m, 9.56 3000m, but didn't run under 2.20 for 800m (even later in College with supposedly "better" coaches). Should have been able to run 2.18 (time-trial indicated as such), but was simply more comfortable at 1500m and up, and so didn't choose to run very many 800's (certainly not HER focus).

Last weekend HS girl ran 2.18.1 and 60.1. That is a differential of 9sec/400m between the two events, so is not yet very aerobically developed, but is quite strong (yet not all that quick - ~28second 200m PR). If she adapts to aerobic development (and the sprint coach doesn't convince her that she is better at 400m if she only did more speed-work), then she might take that down to 7 or even 6, so even off a 60 she could run 2.12-2.14.

Coach - have her run a 200m all-out in a workout to see what her basic sprint speed is, that should tell you whether she has potential to run faster, or needs to focus on getting fitter. Some girls (have coached a few) simply lack strength for the 400/800 even though they are fit and quick over 200m - athletes come in all shapes and types. Too often our preconceived notions of what they should be able to do don't necessarily match reality.

Agree with the above post. Plus let's just say the 800 takes time to learn. I had a 56-57 girl in the open 400 struggle to break 2:20 the first few times. Got down to 2:10 by the end of the season at state but didn't even break 2:16 until the week before. We almost pulled the plug on the 800 but then something clicked. Similar stories with some boys. It a tough race to get down physically, mentally and strategically.

findingmeno wrote:

sub2half wrote:

for a girl running a 60-61 quarter, what kind of mile strength do you think would indicate 2:18 800m shape?

Probably 540 or so?

Are you crazy? With only 60-61 speed, a girl needs about 5:10 mile strength for a 2:18 halfmile

6geniuh wrote:

findingmeno wrote:

Probably 540 or so?

Are you crazy? With only 60-61 speed, a girl needs about 5:10 mile strength for a 2:18 halfmile

61 is a decent 400.

218 is a godly 800.

Therefore the mile requisite is FAST, sub5 or so

I'll add a vote for the 61-62 sec benchmark.

Dan

sub2half wrote:

for a girl running a 60-61 quarter, what kind of mile strength do you think would indicate 2:18 800m shape?

5:40 is pretty close here if the girl trans as a 4/8 runner. I have had a few 4/8 runners with 60 flat and just sub 2:20 times unable to break 5:40 in the mile and at that point we decide not to bring them up to the mile. You will usually find these girls have 26 high 200 speed.

Running in the Rain wrote:

Her speed/800 is actually pretty much on par with her 1500/3000 times. She will need to run about 4:52 and 10:35 before she can start thinking about running around 2:18 which sounds doable.

If the coach is worried about her speed then he should give her workouts to fix that. 150s, 200s some short hills and some drills.

you are going about this all wrong, every paper i have ever read anywhere states you work on power then spread it out to distance. assuming she has a decent base (you said she ran indoors so she does) she should be able to run a fast 800 before she can run fast 3000s and 15s. speaking as a 15 3 guy, i know the only way to run a fast 3 is with a fast 15. work on her 8 then let her build up to a 15 or 3

I'm 16 (Male) and have been running for 2 years, started with a 25:45 5K, and last Sunday I ran a 2:18 800M, my PR last year was 2:38 so it's more than possible to get from 2:25 to 2:18 in a year.

I'm not affiliated with Ryan Banta, but here is an excellent video presentation of his on the subject: http://speedendurance.com/2017/02/05/how-to-train-the-400800-meters-double/

It depends on the size of the runner. A 6'0" 145 lbs. female will most likely need to be a sub-62 400m to run 2:18.xx 800m. A 5'6" 115 lbs. female may only need sub-65 400m speed.