Freelove wrote:
Is it alright to source coffee and cocoa from farmers using child slaves in the Ivory Coast? After all, if it's not illegal it must be A-OK.
It is absolutely not alright to source coffee from farmers using child slaves in the Ivory Coast. The Ivory Coast produces horrible coffee. Why would you buy crappy robusta beans that have to be "dark roasted" (aka burned beyond recognition) to be palatable when you can get a great bean from Kenya or Ethiopia?
Freelove wrote:
It's also a fact that Apple et al can avoid doing business with abusive companies.
Who are we to tell another culture what to consider "abusive"? If they didn't like the way that companies in their own country operate, they'd make regulations. The fact that they haven't means that they are okay with working conditions.
They're free to do as they wish. We as consumers/companies don't have to support abuse, though. And who is this 'they' you're talking about? It's not like China has an elected government or any meaningful involvement of the people.
The fact is that FoxxConn and other companies in China have lines of people looking for jobs. These conditions seem very harsh to us, but they are normal in Shin Jin, unfortunately.
Now, I am not saying this is right, believe me, but this is the culture that people have created.
Apple COULD NOT produce the product in the USA. They could not so it. Look at our labor unions. They would have a field day with Apple.
This is not the fault of Apple executives. This is the fault of everyday citizens using ipods, iphones, macs, etc. Hell, most non-apple brands produce their products in Shin Jin as well, even using FoxConn.
Apple actually does MORE than any other tech company to ensure that the standards are up to their contract specifications - WHICH ARE STRICTER THAN OTHER TECH COMPANIES.
You know where the real injustices are being done? Clothing and plastics. Like that RUSH tshirt you have in your closet? Like those Nike running shoes?
I don't think you'd like to see those factories.
Unless you are buying absolutely nothing made in China, you are part of the problem. You are the problem.
General Border Gave The Order wrote:
The fact is that FoxxConn and other companies in China have lines of people looking for jobs. These conditions seem very harsh to us, but they are normal in Shin Jin, unfortunately.
I'll even go a step further than you:
What do the empolyees call FoxxConn?
The best employer they can find.
Yeah, I am posting This American Life transcripts like whoa today, but this one is relevant, too.
This is about one guy's journalistic exploration of FoxxConn and Shin Jin in general... Eye opening, to say the least:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/transcript
they can make their own rules wrote:
quick question wrote:says who?
I don't even know what this means. It's just a fact that a country can make rules about working standards. Are you under the impression that working conditions in the US are good just because companies here are benevolent? No, the US government has rules and fines companies for breaking those rules. China is free to do the same.
You said it's "up to the government". Where does it say that it's "up to" the governement to make rules? Businesses are free and allowed to make their own sets of rules (and do) also.
quick question wrote:
You said it's "up to the government". Where does it say that it's "up to" the governement to make rules? Businesses are free and allowed to make their own sets of rules (and do) also.
Why would the business make the rules that you suggest? It doesn't benefit them. It benefits the people to have rules about working conditions, so the people should make the rules. That is the whole purpose of government.
How are the people going to make any rules under an oppressive government? The power to make rules is held entirely by a) the government and b) companies doing business there. If Apple were to say "we will stop doing business with you if you don't fix this" it would be fixed.
The catalyst for change needs to come from consumers, though. Look what happened when the public found out about conditions in Nike's factories.
they can make their own rules wrote:
quick question wrote:You said it's "up to the government". Where does it say that it's "up to" the governement to make rules? Businesses are free and allowed to make their own sets of rules (and do) also.
Why would the business make the rules that you suggest? It doesn't benefit them. It benefits the people to have rules about working conditions, so the people should make the rules. That is the whole purpose of government.
Because businesses want to retain their employees and because some businesses have morals. It happens all the time. Every business has rules besides the rules set upon them by the government. The concept EXISTS.
Yes, if the American slaves didn't like it, then they should have just spoken up, huh? Silly them
quick question wrote:
Because businesses want to retain their employees and because some businesses have morals. It happens all the time. Every business has rules besides the rules set upon them by the government. The concept EXISTS.
Yes, if the American slaves didn't like it, then they should have just spoken up, huh? Silly them
Right, businesses create better working conditions than the minimum required when they need to to retain good employees. This is irrelevant to the case at hand. Clearly companies operating in China do not have to have good working conditions in order to attract and retain the employees that they need. If such a need arises, they will adjust.
The slavery issue that you bring up supports my point. The slaves weren't set free because individuals and businesses decided to end slavery. Slavery ended because the Government made it illegal. This is exactly my point.
I just want to pop in to say that Apple does actually tell FoxConn that they need to improve conditions. They send representatives to inspect the factories and report on conditions. I know that you roll your eyes, but what else can Apple do? Apple isn't going to stop selling products.
Apple does MORE than other companies to help the workers. When Apple found out FoxConn was using a neurological toxin to clean ipod screens, they stopped production until FoxConn switched to rubbing alcohol.
Flagpole, I am not sure the conditions of Nike workers have changed that much... Some positive PR gets thrown around, but do you think the workers are in great conditions now? Apple does exactly what Nike did.
The problem is that these workers are dirt poor and 100% reliant on the manufacturers to eat and live. If Apple pulled out, these people would likely starve to death. The Chinese executives would simply move on.
Apple can not rebuild China. This is a much larger issue and Apple actually improves the lives of these workers.
It is tragic, I am not saying it is okay. It is not, but Apple can't just buy China a new infrastructure and be done with it.
Not bad for a company that essentially designs toys for home users.
Freelove wrote:
How are the people going to make any rules under an oppressive government?
I know we've long been under the impression that we are in charge of the world, but the above is not our affair.
they can make their own rules wrote:
Freelove wrote:How are the people going to make any rules under an oppressive government?
I know we've long been under the impression that we are in charge of the world, but the above is not our affair.
It is if we're the ones driving the exploitative consumption... You can pretend to be solipsistic all you like, but you live in an interconnected world, bucko.
And it isn't going to be consumer morality that drives a transformation any more than the Chinese government. It's going to be the American consumers realizing that their own economic position is compromised by low working conditions in China and that by pressuring companies and governments to increase regulation abroad they will have more jobs available at home. The slavery example is illustrative. Abolitionism didn't really take off until post-Dred Scott, and not because the decision made whites realize how poorly slaves and escaped slaves were being treated, but because whites felt that their own due process and civil rights were being violated by slavery. The original abolitionists were mostly driven by moral outrage, but the sweeping tide of abolitionism in the North was mostly the result of white self-interest, as are most revolutions that improve conditions for the oppressed.
Rene the Cart wrote:
It is if we're the ones driving the exploitative consumption... You can pretend to be solipsistic all you like, but you live in an interconnected world, bucko.
And it isn't going to be consumer morality that drives a transformation any more than the Chinese government. It's going to be the American consumers realizing that their own economic position is compromised by low working conditions in China and that by pressuring companies and governments to increase regulation abroad they will have more jobs available at home. The slavery example is illustrative. Abolitionism didn't really take off until post-Dred Scott, and not because the decision made whites realize how poorly slaves and escaped slaves were being treated, but because whites felt that their own due process and civil rights were being violated by slavery. The original abolitionists were mostly driven by moral outrage, but the sweeping tide of abolitionism in the North was mostly the result of white self-interest, as are most revolutions that improve conditions for the oppressed.
Meh. GTFO with all that talk. Just get me cheaper iPhones.
Not sure why you addressed that question to me since I have not posted yet in this thread (until now).No, I do not think that the people who work for Apple, especially in China, are in great conditions.
General Border Gave The Order wrote:
Flagpole, I am not sure the conditions of Nike workers have changed that much... Some positive PR gets thrown around, but do you think the workers are in great conditions now? Apple does exactly what Nike did.
Flagpole wrote:
Not sure why you addressed that question to me since I have not posted yet in this thread (until now).
No, I do not think that the people who work for Apple, especially in China, are in great conditions.
LOL, Freudian Slip I guess...? Sorry. You are always on my mind!!
asdsdf wrote:
Apple now has a market cap that is greater than the GDP of Sweden. It's hard to fathom. Apple's market cap is greater than Microsoft's and Google's, combined.
When did AAPL pass the market cap of Miscrosoft? I thought it was in the last 6 months but it must have been longer than that if it is now worth more than Google and Microsoft combined.
Turns out your linked story was another big fat liberal lie. They have retracted it. Do you owe an apology or is there more agenda to advance?
General Border Gave The Order wrote:
Yeah, I am posting This American Life transcripts like whoa today, but this one is relevant, too.
This is about one guy's journalistic exploration of FoxxConn and Shin Jin in general... Eye opening, to say the least:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/transcript