Fall Marathon Training- Week Ending 11/1

Goal Race: Philadelphia

Goal Time: 2:55 (first marathon)

Didn't post last week. Was physically tired and mentally not into it at all so I cut my week very short, took a couple days off, and only did 40.

Last week went better even though I would have liked more mileage.

M - 10 medium (6:48/mi)

T - 7 easy (7:00/mi)

W - 11 with with 7 mi tempo (6:00/mi) on treadmill

T - 9 easy (7:10/mi)

F - 17 near MP (6:41/mi)

S - off

S - 9 easy (7:05/mi)

total: about 65

Friday's longish run went great for 15 of the 17 miles. I was at the slow end of my MP but it felt comfortable.For some dumb reason I was doing it without water/gels though and I pretty much crashed at mile 15 and just had to survive to get back home with a couple short walking breaks.

Probably going for a two week taper at this point using the Pfitzinger book for guidance.

PR Seeker - looks like we have similar goals for Philly. Have you run there before?

I'm always amazed at the pace that some people consider "moderate". It is probably just how we define things, but the bulk of my mileage is 7:30-8:30.

A moderate 10 miler in 62 minutes seems a bit quick.

I pretty much stick with the philosophy of either easy/recovery or tempo/hard.

Cutter,

I'm with you. Most of my easy days these days are 7:00-8:00 pace. Occasionally I'll feel good and roll down to 6:30 pace and occasionally I feel lousy and I'm sure I run over 8:00 pace. Probably 7 out of 10 easy runs, though, I run between 7:00 and 7:15.

I'd say the bulk of my mileage is usually 7:10-7:30 pace but I find it difficult to go much slower than 7:30. I've found this to be even more accurate on the treadmill. 7:30 pace is just miserable whereas 6:45 pace keeps me somewhat interested (probably just miles rolling by quicker).

Yes, I ran it back in 2001 (that's actually the PR that I'm trying to break). I've also done the 8k every year since.

Pretty good course overall (though they have added in Lemon Hill at about mile 14). It can pretty damn cold for a 7am start in late Nov., but gotta start early enough to let the walkers finish before they re-open the roads. To me, it's a good middle sized race. Big enough to have good support and runners around, but not as overwhelming as NY, Chicago etc.

If you have any specific questions, let me know. Maybe we could even look each other up and pace together.

Cutter wrote:

I'm always amazed at the pace that some people consider "moderate". It is probably just how we define things, but the bulk of my mileage is 7:30-8:30.

Cutter is smart. I keep running slower on my easy days and getting faster in the marathon, and I believe the two are related!

I've actually been toying with the idea of leaving my watch off/at home for all easy days. I may not run slower, but at least I won't freak out that I'm going too fast (or too slow).

Cutter (& any others),

For starters, your top end pace is much faster than mine. With that in mind, did it take you awhile to get used to that kind of pace for your easy runs? I've been trying to do a better job of easy being easy (ie using an HR monitor and sticking to about 72% of theoretical max), but if I get to 8min/mile or more it almost feels awkward. Do I really need to slow down more, or is keeping it around that 70-72% ok?

As I got closer to NY, I stopped timing my easy days. I decided that I didn't care what pace I was running. I think this helped out a lot.

So, after some analysis of this year's running, here is my plan on what to do differently and what to incorporate for next year to get me to 2:35 or under for Chicago.

1) For the 1st 22 weeks of 2009 I averaged 37 mpw, and had over 2 years of no running before that. This was my starting place of marathon training. What I would like to do this time is after 2 weeks off, build to 100 miles a week by week 1 of 2010. I would then like to average about 90 mpw from Jan-May. I would also like to run 1 2hr+ run per week (my longest last winter/spring was 1 15 miler, 1 14 miler, and 2 13 milers).

2) I think I did 3, maybe 4 workouts faster then 5:20 pace since I started running again. So in 2010 I would like to work on my speed from Jan-April... alternating V02Max with Threshold and anaerobic work. I would like to do this, though, while maintaining my mileage and long runs.

3) I want to focus on 1/2 Marathon workouts from April-May and hopefully run a good one at the end of May before taking a week off.

4) I averaged 72 mpw for the 15 weeks leading up to the 2 weeks before my marathon this year. Next year I would like to average closer to 95 for the 15 weeks leading up to 2 weeks before.

5) I want to incorporate an extra double per week (3 total), a medium long run of 13 per week, and slightly longer long runs (rather then 1 run of 22, have my longest be 24 and then have 4 in the 22 range and maybe 5 in the 20-21 range). Figure most of this stuff will be incorporated all year.

I like the work I did in terms of workouts, so will probably change very little there.

I think if I can manage this, stay healthy, rested and motivated, it will make a huge difference.

Thoughts and/or comments?

[quote]PR Seeker wrote:

Cutter (& any others),

if I get to 8min/mile or more it almost feels awkward. /quote]

That's amazing. We run similar marathon times (2:52 in Chicago) but for me 8 min/mile seems fast. When I was a 3:05 marathoner, I'd usually run at 7:30 pace on easy days. Go figure.

When I'm in shape (like not now, but pre-Chicago). My recovery pace would be 8:10-8:30/mile. GA pace would be 7:40-7:55. MLR & LR pace would 7:30-7:55/mile. MP pace would be well MP pace ;) My last LT run was around 6:26/mile. I was running my Vo2Max stuff around 5:5x/mile.

My fastest average pace for a training run pre-Chicago was 7:08/mile, which was 17.5 miles with 12 @ GMP (6:38).

I ran a 2:55 in Chicago (6:42/mi), and it felt rather easy.

1TM - Just be wary about Chicago and the problems it has with weather. Hopefully it will be as good in 2010 as it was in 2009. NY is 4 weeks after Chicago next year. Maybe use that as a back-up?

Yeah, that kind of frightens me with Chicago, but my whole team is doing it, so I think I'm going to go along for the ride and keep my fingers crossed. I can deal with really cold and really hot, but its rain and wind that scares me.

I put in about 50 miles for boston '10.

I was really interested to read that Meb likes to run recovery days faster than Hall does. I run slow on my recovery days, 7:30-ish I think, but the pace doesn't matter to me. Whoever mentioned ditching the watch for recovery days is right on, that really changed things for me. Some days, especially early on in the cycle when workouts take a toll on the body, my recovery pace is extremely slow. But my effort is always the same for that kind of run. My trick is to use the Garmin, or run a loop that I know distance for (in that case, no watch at all). With the Garmin on I can go through the whole run without devoting a single thought to my pace, only on the easy effort, and still know my distance in the end for my log (admittedly OCD but there it is).

It made all the difference for my training.

AKM nailed it with the "effort" comment. Those easy/recovery days I spend with the 3:30-4 hour crew in our club. Known loops or the garmin is also the same for me.

Mile 1 6:27 found my teammates and took it out up the Verrazano Narrows about twenty seconds harder than each of the last two years.

Mile 2 5:39 relaxed down the bridge in a big group.

Mile 3 6:04? and 3.1 at 18:48 a bit slower with the uphill after the bridge. stayed with most in the group but did not feel like it was going to be a great day.

Mile 5 5:57 avg for 2M/30:05? missed mile 4 marker, so, pleasantly surprised to have gone sub six pace for the past two miles. holding to plan (go out a bit faster on mile 1, ease back on mile 2, and then try to go six minute pace and see how it felt). staying with a nice group, some drafting: felt very easy. headwind strong throughout first half of race in Brooklyn.

Mile 6 5:57?/36:02? still easy. may have been around here or in the next mile where I moved ahead of my group because the pace felt so easy. Wind really penalized the attempt to move up, but I was able to run with some other guys for most of Brooklyn.

Mile 7 5:56?/41:58? psyched to be under six minute pace and started to think that I could do it for the whole race but paid a price for moving up against the wind.

mile 8-10 slowed a bit on tenth mile to just over 1 hr for the first ten.

miles 11-13 bit over six. hill in the silent part of Williamsburg where the orthodox do not cheer or for the most part even watch. unclear on the splits because I was running by feel and not paying much attention to time.

13.1 1:19:11 (gun time). must have just passed first time marathoner on the Pulaski bridge or just before that. He wasn't the guy with the Cancer center jersey, was he?

15 6:20s up the Queensboro Bridge. remembered that my family was probably keeping up on the athlete tracker and that gave me a lift.

16-20 low 6 down the bridge (took second gel (wouldn't take any more to avoid cramps, maybe a mistake) and pretty much maintained that pace up First Avenue to the Bronx. started to pass a lot of people.

hit 20 at 2:01:42 and had to go sub 38:18 10k to close under 2:40.

21 6:21? faded a bit in the Bronx, especially on the hill up to the bridge back to Manhattan.

22 low 6 feeling a sense of urgency

23 5:59 really got going in Harlem despite half colliding with some idiot older woman crossing the street.

24 6:21? struggled on the Fifth Avenue hill, maybe because I skipped the third gel.

25 6:03 really pushed hard in the park through the hills

26 6:02 passed very quickly by a German at the bottom of the park and decided that if I didn't stick to him I would not break 2:40. I stuck with him up the hill, got the inside on the turn from Columbus Circle. We were going good inside the park and the crowd was roaring and I saw 2:38:36 on the clock at 26, so I knew I had it. I hammered up the hill, dropped the German by about ten or fifteen seconds, and closed .2 in 69 seconds.

officially, 2:39:46. completely psyched about this, a 42 second pr off of much worse shape than last year after only 1 month of workouts, following a calf injury in early September. I credit long tempos (10 miles plus) and strength workouts (7x1M (200m rest) in about 5:40), as well as running more the final week than last year (31 vs. 17 prior to the marathon, including 2 the day before).

Haha... JR... I know who you are. We were together for the first while. I had you in my sights for a long time and then I lost you, obviously. You were running with the guy in the other orange jersey for a while. I had an all black jersey on with my team's logo on it (a fellow NYC rival team that I started a few years ago. I should probably just start going by my other handle on this thread, but don't want to because its a hated name on Letsrun).

If I was smart I would have stayed back with JB on your team, but forged ahead. Oh well. It was my first one.

Great job man! I had envisioned my last 6 miles being like yours and unfortunately, they were not. Next time, I suppose.

Florida crew,

My parents are snow-birds and spend 6 months of the year in Naples. Was thinking maybe I would make the trip in January and do the half on the 17th.

2 questions

1) have any of you done this? How is the race?

2) Would like to PR. I think I could have run 1:15-1:16 prior to the marathon. My plan after 2 weeks off is 2 weeks of just easy mileage of 45 and 55 before adding 10 more miles per week with an easy tempo or progression and strides.

Within 8 weeks (i.e. from that first 45 mile week to the week of the race) can I expect to be in as good of shape as I was leading up to the marathon? In other words... how fast will my pre-marathon fitness come back after 2 weeks off?

Mon: 16 miles at mp (6:28's) w/ 2 mile warmup/cooldown

Tue: dnr

Wed: 13 miles (7:40's)

Thu: 5 miles (7:40's)

Fri: 7 miles moderate (7:00's)

Sat: 5 miles (7:40's)

Sun: 22 miles w/ last three hard (6:20's)

Total = 70 miles

Goal is 2:48-52 marathon