Instead of spouting out nonsense why dont you ask Marius if Mr. Newton had a signifigant impact on his career and training. The answer might suprise you, especially he "was only here a year"
Instead of spouting out nonsense why dont you ask Marius if Mr. Newton had a signifigant impact on his career and training. The answer might suprise you, especially he "was only here a year"
There is more wrong with the level of individualized progression at almost any college program (including notable top programs) than there is at York.
crazykyle26 wrote:
I don't think anyone really questions that Mr Newton is an amazing coach. What people are saying, however, is that it might have been too much for kids that young. For those who did run at York they had a wonderful coach and mentor I'm sure and really developed to their fullest potential.
One possibility is that yes Coach Newton did burn them out. It happens and it does not change the FACT that the boys at York won all kinds of titles and achieved tremendous success. A VERY respectable thing. Just because not all went on to succeed in college or professionally is not the end of the world. There is a lot of speculation that Jim Ryun ran the same way. His coach ran him so hard that he PRed very early on in his career and did not improve much later on. Jim Ryun is still a legend and no one is really going to argue that (but this is letsrun so someone is bound to).
A second possibility could be that the boys of York just went to run for the wrong program in college and the training that they had begun doing after HS just did not work for them. In such a case it would be the coach at the university they were at that should've adapted their style of running to the athlete. I don't know for sure how they trained at York but I do know that Newton learned a lot from a lot of great coaches and his boys ran lots of mileage, and perhaps ran in more of a lydiard style. Maybe going to a school like a Colorado instead of an Oregon (this is just an example) where Wetmore is more of a lydiard advocate and Lananna is more of a quality advocate (or Andy Powell who does a majority of coaching there).
All in all, Coach Newton is one of the greatest coaches to have ever lived and whether or not the athletes he coached were burnt out after high school it does not really matter because they still achieved so much success and won many titles and have such an experience that not many of us can say we have had the pleasure of knowing.
I think that the major college programs do a horrible job with individual progression of athletes. The smaller schools tend to do a much better job at the expense of them performing well in college. I don't know if that's what you were getting at but if it was I agree completely. What I was saying in my second possibility is that they could have gone to a program that run in a similar method as they ran in high school, not a program that will develop them but rather it will just be something they are used to doing, as well as being used to their teammates doing the same thing as well.
Sort of the double-edged sword. Bigger programs can often offer more in terms of scholarship money to the most talented recruits and build a following through the media. Selling high schoolers on substance and patient progression can be done, it's just incredibly tough. They want to follow the popular crowd and be a part of the flash, not realizing that it could easily go against their own best interests.
What ever happened to....
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~phoffman/nats/topb16.htm
or:
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~phoffman/nats/topb32.htm
or:
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~phoffman/nats99/topb16.htm
or:
http://www.cs.uml.edu/~phoffman/nats99/topb32.htm
People get hurt, get tired of running, get lives, lots of things happen.
Alan
Ok, seriously, can we get back to the original question? Here's what I know, can someone fill in what I don't?
In HS he was second to Torres at IHSA twice before winning as a senior, putting 20+ seconds on Tim Keller, who placed 6th a month or so later at Footlockers. Sage placed second in Footlockers, and that is still the second fastest time ever run on that course. In the spring, he ran anchor on Yorks record 7:34 4x800. Supposedly hadn't raced an 800 in a long time and didn't know what he was doing. Went out in 50, came back in 60 for a 1:50.7. His biggest exploits that year though were his infamous 8:42/4:07 double with 57ish last laps on both, and his 4:00.29 mile at Prefontaine.
Sage had a good career at Stanford, maybe even a great one. However, it wasn't quite as good individually as we might have hoped the way he ran his senior year in high school.
He was All-American several times in XC, and IIRC in 2002, the year that Stanford scored like 24 points or something, he was 13th in the nation. Oh, and he was Stanford's 6th man. Didn't score. Ironically, as a senior in HS, he won the IHSA state meet, leading the Dukes to a 24 point score, which I believe is the lowest score ever in the meet.
He won the NCAA 1500 once, and I believe was a finalist several times. I believe a 3:39 PR. Oh, and he ran 3:39 as a frosh.
Ran about 13:45 the few times he competed in the 5k. This frustrated letsrunners as, like Fernandez, they assume good miling ability, combined with a good 3200/1600 double and exceptional XC performances, meant he was automatically a 5k stud. I believe he only ran it a few times, and have a vague memory that he may have run stride for stride with Hall on one 5k. If you recall, Hall "struggled" at that 13:45ish level for a couple years before he and Dobson busted into the 13:15 range.
After he graduated, he just kind of disappeared. I don't recall ever seeing a formal announcement of what he was doing. A thread very similar to this one popped up, and several people showed up claiming he was working in investment banking or something like that, making 100k a year, and had quit running. There was a story about his dad having been a former runner and having counseled him to hang it up. This prompted the usual debates about whether Newton burns out athletes, and another side debate about whether or not it was possible for someone with a Stanford education to make 100k/yr their first year out of school.
A year or two ago, it was announced that was making a comeback with OTC. Louis Luchini was also doing the same thing at the same time, though I don't know if they were technically 'making the comeback together'. I think there was talk of trying to make the Beijing squad, though they seemed to leave it a little late for that. I recall seeing some them in some indoor races in the northwest, probably at Washington. Louis was doing a little better than Don, but neither looked particularly impressive. Not so bad as to be worried about their progress, however, in the beginning of a comeback. I want to say times of like 8:00 3k and 3:47ish 1500 for Luchini and about 8:05 and 3:50ish for Don.
That comeback never seemed to transition to outdoors and if it did, it escaped my attention.
So that's what I know. I'm sure I got some details wrong, and some decimals screwed up, but overall, that's the picture.
So that leads to the question: what happened to him? Is he still on the comeback trail? Training well, but not racing? Struggling and injured, but still training? Decided to hang it up again after some underwhelming performances? Decided to quit after not making it to Beijing?
And the same questions for Luchini too. And I also seem to recall a brief Franklyn Sanchez comeback. Didn't he show up and run well at USA Club XC a few years ago?
from what I read, Sage was a casualty of the property bust. He was working in SoCal, and when the music stopped, he was out of a job. So, the opportunity cost of running full-time declined dramatically.
giffypop17 wrote:
His biggest exploits that year though were his infamous 8:42/4:07 double with 57ish last laps on both, and his 4:00.29 mile at Prefontaine.
the legend goes that he ran something like 53 for the last lap, at least in the 32. unless that was the dupage county meet where he ran that, also to beat keller in around the 8:42 range.
and some of you guys have got to be joking. let's be honest with ourselves for a moment here, are some of you guys capable of that? don sage is a classic case of a york burnout. yes, it is true that after york there's not a lot of room to increase training and keep improving (what a lot of newton fans like to say, only they say "no college coaches are as good as newton"). that's a problem. when one of the best high school runners of all time quits the sport at such a young age, there is probably a problem. for some people, that's good enough. yes, york has a tremendous tradition and great accomplishments. and in the running community as i see it, that's pretty great considering our infatuation with high school running in this country. but, if you care about some of what i would call the bigger more important stuff, ncaa, usa, and world level competition, it's a recipe for disaster. all i take from don sage's career is that he was a huge talent that quit running at the age of 22 or 23. i have heard details from york runners and parents of workouts that include over 2 hours worth of continuous running, done by many 16 year old kids.
of the thousands of runners newton has coached, with the tradition he has given them, i would expect an absurd amount more results in college then there have been. that's me i guess. if you disagree then you must be fine with mediocracy, something newton doesn't speak too fondly of.
it just is what it is.
Time to call bullsh*t. As a York alum, I can recall zero instances where there was *ever* "2 hours of continuous running" by anyone. I don't know if individuals did that on their own, but it was not part of any program.I don't know whether Joe Newton provides the best platform for future Olympians. No one does. What I do know is that he takes kids who might never run or might run 17:00 for three miles at another school and helps them run faster. More importantly, he makes them feel part of a team. He has done this for thousands of kids.In four years, I went from a skinny nerd playing basketball to a skinny nerd who was all state. I also carried life lessons with me that I still remember decades later. That is Joe Newton's magic. Newton's greatest contribution isn't for the top 1% of his runners (which I was not), but for the other 99%, which at York is a lot of human beings.I went to a division I school to run, but my version of "york burnout" was that it wasn't as inspiring and I didn't have the same feel of team. Maybe the criticism of Joe Newton would be that he sets those standards too high, rather than physical burnout.
scottie__pippen wrote:
giffypop17 wrote:His biggest exploits that year though were his infamous 8:42/4:07 double with 57ish last laps on both, and his 4:00.29 mile at Prefontaine.
the legend goes that he ran something like 53 for the last lap, at least in the 32. unless that was the dupage county meet where he ran that, also to beat keller in around the 8:42 range.
and some of you guys have got to be joking. let's be honest with ourselves for a moment here, are some of you guys capable of that? don sage is a classic case of a york burnout. yes, it is true that after york there's not a lot of room to increase training and keep improving (what a lot of newton fans like to say, only they say "no college coaches are as good as newton"). that's a problem. when one of the best high school runners of all time quits the sport at such a young age, there is probably a problem. for some people, that's good enough. yes, york has a tremendous tradition and great accomplishments. and in the running community as i see it, that's pretty great considering our infatuation with high school running in this country. but, if you care about some of what i would call the bigger more important stuff, ncaa, usa, and world level competition, it's a recipe for disaster. all i take from don sage's career is that he was a huge talent that quit running at the age of 22 or 23. i have heard details from york runners and parents of workouts that include over 2 hours worth of continuous running, done by many 16 year old kids.
of the thousands of runners newton has coached, with the tradition he has given them, i would expect an absurd amount more results in college then there have been. that's me i guess. if you disagree then you must be fine with mediocracy, something newton doesn't speak too fondly of.
it just is what it is.
This kind of reminds me of the movie that was based on the true story of a Texas High School football team. I think it was Friday Night Lites. One of the kids was smart enough to get in to Harvard and he quit their football team because they were not intense enough compared to what he was used to in High School.
AYBABTU wrote:
I'll accept it if you switch the up and us. Otherwise you're getting a lot of red ink.
Yeah, see it would be okay if it weren't those two words, as those are the words noobs tend to confuse when they try to look cool.
I love looking at those 1996 1600 lists. A lot of these guys did do something of note, Alan. Here are the ones I know of:
1 4:04.76+(4:06.38-1mile) Michael Stember-Olympian
2 4:06.23+(3:50.84-1500m) *Gabe Jennings- Olympian
3 4:06.29+(3:50.90-1500m) Jason Vanderhoof- 8 or 9th in NCAA Cross
6 4:09.24+(4:10.89-1mile) *Jonathon Riley- Olympian
7 4:09.2? Marius Bakken Illinois exch. Student- Norway IL- Olympian
10 4:10.49+(3:54.84c1.5k) Darren Dinneen- Great Harvard Career, 1:47 at least
11 4:10.81+ *Sharif Karie- Think he ran OK at Arkansas
15 4:11.80+(3:56.06c1.5k) *Grant Robison- Olympian
46 4:14.85+(3:58.92c1.5k) Colin Dunn- Pretty Good G'Town Career
4
50 4:14.97 Jared Cordes- Great Steeple Career
61 4:15.8? Bolota Asmerom- Olympian
73 4:16.54 **Steve Slattery- Olympian
101 4:18.08 *Ryan Travis- Good Career at Arkansas I think
109 4:18.50 Ray Biersbach- Good Collegiate Career at Columbia and Nova
137 4:19.81 Scott Tantino- Good Nova Career (like 13:50)
143 4:19.99 Luke Watson- Great collegiate career in the steeple and cross for Notre Dame
158 4:20.78 Ryan Kirkpatrick - Great Collegiate Career and some nice post collegiate marks
197 4:22.00 Ryan Shay- Great collegiate and post collegiate career
219 4:22.63+(4:24.38-1mile) Matt Lane- 4th at 2 OT 5000s... Great Collegiate career
242 4:23.69 ED Baker- Good Collegiate career at Harvard
Ahh, the days when breaking 4:20 in hs meant you were a stud! Of course, most of these guys probably did it off of 20-40 mpw. I know Vnderhoof trained a lot in hs, but can only imagine the rest were products of the low mileage, lots of intervals mindset.
Wonder if these guys would have had better careers if they ran 50-80 mpw in hs. Makes you wonder if a 13:20-50 guy then would have become a 13:10-30 guy. Probably.
Of course they did, never said they didn't do anything...but a lot of fast runners on that last that didn't do much past college or even in college.
My point is that there are lots of fast runners who do well in high school but nothing in college or do well in college but nothing afterwards.
If figured the list and comments were directly related to the OP's question.
Sage did what the majority of athletes do.
thats the last i've heard from him...
scottie__pippen wrote:
the legend goes that he ran something like 53 for the last lap, at least in the 32. unless that was the dupage county meet where he ran that, also to beat keller in around the 8:42 range.
I don't know about the legend, but I was there and I can tell you both of those final laps were between 56.0 and 58.0. Definitely no 53s. However, when he accelerated he broke the competition immediately and completed the circuit alone. I think it's reasonable to think he might have had another second or two in him had there been a Ritz or a Webb or someone else who could keep up with him in that race.
Keep in mind that he utterly embarrassed Tim Keller over that final 400 meters, to the tune of 14ish seconds. Tim Keller was sixth at Footlocker, an 8:56 guy, and went on to be All-American and on some good Wisco teams.
The 1600 was almost more impressive. Although the acceleration wasn't quite as explosive or the victory as dominant as in the 3200, he left it a little bit later. Everyone in the crowd had watched his surge in the 3200 a few hours earlier right at the 400 meter mark. As he was sitting off the shoulders of the leaders when they hit the bell, everyone was expecting the same, and there was a moment of disappointment when he didn't go. And then a few seconds later at about 360 meters out, he's gone and the race is over. The only contest was whether he would break the meet record, which he missed by a few tenths.
Missing that record has got to be frustrating as he was holding back some in that 1600 in anticipation of running on the 4x400. York was going for a team title that year, and were prepared to wring Sage for everything he was worth, including asking him to deliver his 48-49 second relay speed after the 3200/1600 double. Luckily for Don, based on his double, the performances by Tim Hobbs, Pete Cioni, Adam Palumbo, Yorks 4x800 and sprinter Terre Mastrino, the Dukes already had the meet wrapped up and the 4x400 performance was not essential and he was able to rest.
The crazy thing is that York could have left Mastrino and 800 meter champ Tim Hobbs home, and just shown up with the same 7 guys that had won XC in the fall. 6 of those 7 guys scored 40 points, which would have narrowly won the meet.
Even crazier was the second place team, Lemont. They only had one athlete in the meet, Nick Bromberek, who managed to win the long jump, 400, 200 and get second in the 100. He got second in the team competition by himself! Illinois only allows competitors 4 events. I don't know if he was any good at the triple jump (maybe) or the hurdles (doubtful), but he might have been able to score even a few more points.
Single best high school track meet I've ever seen. About the only things that could compare would be Webbs 1:47/4:06/:47 triple or whatever it was, or the CA state meet last year with Fernandez, Babcock and Hasay, etc, which I did not get to see. So while the legend of Sage's kick might be exaggerated, it was explosive and impressive, and that meet certainly deserves legendary status.
But, no one knows the status of his comeback? I assume it's over?
liquid sunshine - you are spot on.
My father's teams (he coached briefly before going into business) and my own high teams (from another town) beat York handily in winning the state xc championships. Our best beat them in track, too. My father's teams and my own teams frankly were overtrained.
We ran with Joe's guys from time to time - and I was surprised at the moderate nature of the training. I was also surprised at how much fun they had. Many of the kids were offspring of my father's friends who went to York High School with him - I had known many of them for years.
My grandfather (a CEO of a large corporation in Chicago who lived near York High School) knew Joe from when he first started coaching. My father knew him well too (he is a bit younger than Joe), and greatly respected him. I was clearly prepared to live with my grandfather so I could go to York (all my cousins went to York) but liked my friends and rigorous academic challenge of my hometown school and did not attend.
We collectively always have thought Joe's success is due to the fact that he could get great numbers out and get them excited about running. This obviously just doesn't happen - he does so because he is one of the finer human beings on the planet (extraordinary in how well he treated me and my family).
Our sport has not reached the level of success and popularity that I would have surmised back in the 70's. And I find it absolutely mind boggling that anyone would criticize Joe in any sort of capricious way given his massive contributions. We need lots more Joe Newton's.
I think we can all agree that Sage is/was a huge talent. To run those high school times, you have to have that type of talent.
But if Sage instead went to a mediocre high school where he only ran 30-40 miles a week, how fast would he have run?
4:10/9:10?
4:30/9:40?
Would he have been inspired or pushed enough by a lesser coach than Newton?
Its all guesswork, but if he had only run those lesser times, he would not have been thought of as a legend, even though he was the exact same runner, talent wise. He would definitely have been given less opportunites to run for a great distance college and may have had no big-time success at the collegiate level at all.
Newton gets the BEST out of his kids, and allows them (and colleges) to see how good they can truly be.
I also agree that a lot of the intensity of the team and relationship between coach and runner is lost when going from York to pretty much any university. No one cares for their runners like Newton, and that loss of intimacy most likely accounts for many of the underwhelming collegiate careers for Yorkies.
Coach Newton runs a hell of a program at York and I would have loved to run on one of his teams.
I have a memory of Donald Sage that sticks in my mind above all of his top performances. It was the 2001 Penn Relays where Sage was running what I think was the 800 leg of the DMR. He was running close to the front of the pack as he came around for the second lap and was about to pass the section of stands where the Stanford team was sitting. I know because I was sitting in the same section and saw the events unfold clearly. He must have been feeling confident, OVERLY confident, because he looked up at the stands with some sort of crap eating grin and stuck his tongue out ala Michael Jordan in a mid race celebration of how great he thought he was. Naturally, everybody witnessing this expected a scorching kick to follow his foolish antics but almost as soon as he turned his attention back to the track he pulled up and had to hobble to the sideline. My team and I just busted out in laughter. Did his showboating cause the injury? Nah probably not, but it's always funny to see arrogant bums brought down a notch or two. I would have love to been a fly on the wall to hear the ensuing conversation that he no doubt had with the Stanford coach following the incident.
Good links. Where did Adam Tenforde of Hanford, Washington, run after high school? He had some impressive times.
Northwest Run wrote:
Good links. Where did Adam Tenforde of Hanford, Washington, run after high school? He had some impressive times.
He went to Stanford. He was there pretty much the same time as Sage, Dobson, Hall, Luchini, etc. He was part of some of their best XC teams; several time All-American, I believe several times in the top 10-15 at the NCAA XC meet. I can't recall any other notable individual performances from him though, or any track times.
I also don't remember seeing any results or hearing anything him trying to continue after college.