For the Old Timers: What Did You Think of Tommie Smith and John Carlos in 1968

jsquire, think again.. wrote:

Read this latest City Journal article. You may not like its politics (I don't agree with all of it, either), but the facts are dismal, and to deny them is silly.

http://www.city-journal.org/2009/eon0219hm.html

Thanks for the link. I'd known the situation was bad, but didn't realize it was this bad:

"For instance, the homicide rate for black men between the ages of 18 and 24 is well over ten times that of whites. And disparities in other violent-crime rates are just as startling. In New York City, one of the nation’s safest large cities, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black during the first six months of 2008, according to victims and witnesses, though blacks make up only 24 percent of the city’s population. Add Hispanic perps, and you account for 98 percent of all shootings in New York City. The face of violent crime in cities is almost exclusively black or brown."

I remember reading, years ago, that if you correct for IQ the disparity between white and black crime rates mostly disappears. Unfortunately, no one has yet figured out how to correct the IQ disparity...

It seems like most peoples' reactions posted here are that the act was positive. My questions is whether anyone can see, in light of the violent rhetoric of the time, why this was not well-received. I also think it's disingenuous to align the Civil Rights movement (undoubtedly justified) with the Black Power movement.

I know wikipedia isn't really a great source, but I don't think this is too controversial a passage regarding "black power"

"Black Power adherents believe in Black autonomy, with a variety of tendencies such as black nationalism, and black separatism. Often Black Power advocates are open to use violence as a means of achieving their aims, but this openess to violence was nearly always coupled with community organizing work. Such positions were for the most part in direct conflict with those of leaders of the mainstream Civil Rights Movement, and thus the two movements have often been viewed as inherently antagonistic. However, certain groups and individuals participated in both civil rights and black power activism."

Interesting thread, and thanks to Wejo for starting it. I've seen Carlos & Smith speak on campus a few times, the first time with the late Peter Norman there as well. I'm not sure there was even 100% agreement by Carlos, Smith, and Norman on what happened, how things happened, and how the events were perceived. For instance, I'm still not sure how Norman came to wear a button...there were at least 2 different stories! I have a couple colleagues who conducted an extensive interview with Harry Edwards last year, and he talked at length about the changes in perceptions over the years. Regardless of what the "truth" was, for many people around the world the protest was very meaningful, as Carlos notes in the (admittedly flawed) ESPN piece. What is important, I think, is to educate young students and athletes about the importance of having a political voice, instead of being a sheep, isolated social atom or whatever term you want to use. My sport historian colleague brings his class to the statue of Carlos & Smith on campus and has them reflect on how they place themselves into the larger discourses of social justice, politics, and so on. While it does have a political bent (more progressive), I think the general concept of having a voice transcends MSNBC and FOX.The 2008 election was a great example of young athletes, some for McCain and perhaps (though I have not seen any actual research on it) more for Obama, openly voicing their views instead of keeping silent for fear of losing sponsors, upsetting coaches, or whatever. Regardless of whether they had profound things to say, it was encouraging to see.

Finally, another good book on this topic is: Hartmann, D. (2003). Race, culture, and the revolt of the black athlete. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

In answer to comments asking why it was "not well-received" at the time, I think a couple of things need to be considered.

1968 was still a year on the cusp. I think if had even been 1969, the reception would have been different. Especially among young people at the time, there would have been more support. Frankly, much of the country spent much of 1968 in shock, a logical response to events.

Secondly, the people it was most prominently "not well-received by" were Olympics official, some of whom, like Brundage, were decades out of date.

I was proud of them when they did it and am just as proud of them now.Down with racism of any kind.

What an idiot you are "first facts"; those guys along with so many others had to deal with so much "racism" in America during that time within their lives and community.

I am sure you never had to worry about getting hanged, murdered, have your wife/or girl friend being raped (or the constant possiblitity, denied due process, etc, etc, etc

You call them militant racist jerks yet I wonder if you would have been (I am assuming you are white) put yourself and risk by marching with those in the civil rights movement or protecting blacks who were being mis-treated.

If you want to know history look at how much racism was going on during those times.

If you all are calling WEJO a liberal for stating his views about what he watched then maybe the Republican party is made up of a bunch of Racist -- with Mr. Steele being the "token Black man".

I guess you are just like Sean Hannity and Rush Limb.

This is from an "non" Liberal

jsquire, think again.. wrote:

jsquire - the gaps are a national tragedy.

I never said the gaps in crime didn't exist. I grew up in a a neighborhood where we were pretty much the only white family; as a senior I was the only white kid on my HS track team. Four of my freshman classmates died before our four years were up, and the police once took a dead body off my front porch. I don't have to read any article to get the true story.

But in terms of educational gaps, the census numbers I quoted don't lie. The progress of blacks as compared to the general population over the last 40 years is remarkable. The proportion of Americans under 25 with a HS or college degree went up by a factor of 1.62, compared to 2.73 for blacks. Something has changed, and radically so. Why is up for discussion, but it cannot be argued that an educational gap is a "national tragedy".

I was young, but even at that time thought it was quite courageous, and the USOC/IOC radically over reacted in response.

Today? I feel about the same - just realize it was a LOT more courageous than I realized.

1000 years from now, the images of John Carlos and Tommie Smith will be in the textbooks of school children all over the world as they are today. The story isn't over, however. The United States is still undergoing the process of beging settled civilized, and improved by immigrants from all over the world. Even with the Obama presidency, the United States remains the most racist country in the history of the human race. Racial segregation is as strong today as it has ever been. Just look at you town, your college campus, your high school, your neighborhood.

Lots of people of all colors were being shot in Vietnam. So you're saying that no one should have tried to do anything about any other problems or injustices?

1000 years from now wrote:

Even with the Obama presidency, the United States remains the most racist country in the history of the human race. Racial segregation is as strong today as it has ever been.

I was just going to give this a flame rating--hell, I still will: 1.5 (might get some responses, but gives itself away by being too extreme and inflammatory).

In any case: flame or not, there are people today (mostly, though not all, younger people) who actually believe that one or both of the above statements are true. Amazing.

Didn't see the film you're talking about, Wejo, but I seem to remember seeing some other report on Smith and Carlos (60 Minutes, maybe?).

I was seventeen at the time, and I admit not following the Olympics very closely for some reason (normally I took great interest). But I do remember the news stories about the raised fist gestures.

My first reaction was a kind of annoyance/irritation. The country was becoming so polarized with the Vietnam war and the assassinations that I was getting tired of people just adding more fuel to the fire. I think I wanted the Olympics to be free of politics--but I was still naive enough at that time to think that it was possible for such a thing to happen.

Looking back, I think that I was taken in by the media hype and not really listening to what Smith and Carlos really were saying through their raised fists. The more I read and hear about that gesture, though, the more I understand what motivated it. Race relations even now, with Obama elected president, are still rocky, and a lot of healing is still needed.

At that time, a raised fist or a riot... both were often lumped together and yet real concerns of African Americans were shunted aside. It may take more lifetimes than we have for some solution to racism. And a black gloved fist salute might seem almost futile. Yet this gesture lives and is remembered. And we're engaging in some kind of dialogue as a result. It's not enough but it's a start.

It ranks as one of the greatest moments in American history. Carlos, Smith, and Norman not only protested the treatment of Afro-Americans but also the treatment all Americans. All Americans sought the promise of America, freedom and justice from oppression. Hispanics, Asians, gays, bi's, women, whites, etc. White men in particular did not want to be drafted by the U.S. government and forced to participate in the 400 year long genocide and U.S./European imperialism in Southeast Asia. 1968 was a time of much turmoil across America. Every day there was something new, something exciting, and something dangerous. It's sad to me now that young people have lost the spirit and the fervor we had back in the 1960's for human rights and justice for all mankind. Look at what America is doing in the Middle East today. America has returned as the principal perpretrator of global imperialism, mass murder, and genocide, murdering 100,000 Arabs, stealing and colonizing Palestine, and incinerating women and children for the sake of an apartheid evil called Ziomism. Even Obama is a lousy imperialist, racist, Zionist rat. It's so sad to me that what Carlos, Smith, and Norman did in 1968 has been lost on today's children and young people in America.

The first facts wrote:

Wejo, you're being spoon-fed revisionist history. Smith and Carlos weren't heroes, they were militant racist jerks.

you gotta be the dumbest a-hole walking on 2 feet. you are probably still sad about the south losing the civil war too, huh?

I was in the stands for that victory ceremony in 1968. Those were very different times from 2009.

The American Continent had been through a Great Depression and had been active in two World Wars. There was great pride in the United States and in the Flag. It was respected at all times and no matter what. The United States Flag was the only Flag that is not dipped to the host nation during the Olympic Opening Ceremony. As late as the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, there were people of my generation or older who were upset by the fact that celebrating athletes allowed the flag to touch the ground.

I moved from Toronto to Los Angeles by way of the Tokyo Olympics in 1964. At those Olympics I received a small look at the fact that there were Americans who did not like other Americans. There was a loud-mouth from a Southern State sitting near me who continuously cheered for anyone to beat the "Ruskies" except when the athlete involved was an African American. He cheered against black American Athletes. (In 1968 we were still in the middle of the cold war and there was great tension and rivalry between the US and Russia.)

The 1968 Olympic 200 was thrilling. John Carlos won the first semi-final. In the second semi-final Tommie Smith limped off track after also winning. In the final Carlos went out fast but Smith pulled him down in the last half of the race and won in a world record time. The Americans in the stands were very excited and proud that the United States had won 2 medals. It was a great race. The victory ceremony was a "genuine shock". At first some did not understand what was happening and others felt that the flag should always be respected, that political and internal problems do not belong at the Olympics or in an International Forum.

This weekend I asked a few friends what they thought now. A white friend felt that the action denigrated the US Flag. A younger black friend would not comment and a black friend my age had a big smile on his face when I brought up the subject. Since 1968, there has been much change but still not enough.

These responses are interesting considering the post about the college men's track team that boycotted the BYU meet after Dr. King was assassinated had very different results. That post had some pretty harsh words for those athletes.

What Carlos/Smith did in 1968 was the marquis symbolic event of the 1960's for those of us who were born in the inner city, who remain in the inner city today, and who will never leave the inner city until we die. It galvanized black kids at my high school in South Central L.A. where they struggled daily against the L.A.P.D. and L.A.U.S.D. police. Initially, my ethnic group stood on the sidelines in the beginning, having earlier been in U.S government concentraion camps during WWII. But we Japanese-Americans joined the Asian-American Anti-War / Civil Rights movement, and Concentration Camp Reparations movement. We emerged raising our voices loudly in protest. We were spured on by Carlos/Smith, Malcolm X, MLK, Cesar Chavez, Black Panther Party, La Raza / Ruben Salazar, Angela Davis, Gidra, etc. These were the greatest times of our lives. We felt lucky to have been born at a time when each and every day extremely important events and incidents took place that mattered and actually changed society.

I was 20 in 1968. Campaigned for Eugene McCarthy in Milwaukee in a racist area of Milwaukee. Avoided attending the '68 Democratic Convention when my fraternity brother at DePaul told us a week before the Grant Park incidents that the cops had orders to beat the hads in of those attending. We listened because he was a Democratic judge in Chicago and knew what was going on.

After transferring from Northwestern in '67 met many guys returning from Nam. They told us how messed up it all was. These were conservative Chicagoans who went off to serve their country and returned to march with us, for Civil Rights and anti-war.

We each did what we could, trying to open the minds of those we knew. Carlos/Smith did what they could, on a bigger stage than some of us, with more to lose. I only had to face my office co-workers in my part time factory job while working my way through college. If you weren't around in the 50's and 60's you can't imagine how repressed people were. Thank those trailbalzers for your civil and social freedoms. As much a part of the maturing of America as the (over) hailed WWII generation.

I'm wondering what Carlos and Smith think about Dubai not letting Israeli tennis player Shahar Peer play in last week's tournament. Sports and politics are still intertwined!