Oracle Javasoft vs Google Android trial begins tomorrow in San Francisco. Microsoft slayer & CA Prop 8 killer David Boies represents Javasoft. I predict Javasoft will win, Android forced to release internal version 100% compatible with Java Mobile Edition.
It would be nice to be able to run Java apps on Android pads that's for sure.
Microsoft is still in business and never split up.
Netscape failed to retake any significant share of the browser market and got bought out by AOL, which is an obsolete company now. Sun failed to become the force it had hoped to become with Java and got bought out by Oracle.
Did David Boies really slay Microsoft?
2.1 Billion Java devices are in customer hands today (including Android). If you are using 2G, 3G, 4G, cable modem or ADSL then we're communicating over a telecomm control plane infrastructure built solely on Java Enterprise Edition. Intel has refocused it's prime business to smart phones, Pads, and 3D, away from Windows. I'd say Boies won.
1.1 Billion Java desktops
3.0 Billion Java mobile devices
2 Billion wrote:
2.1 Billion Java devices are in customer hands today (including Android). If you are using 2G, 3G, 4G, cable modem or ADSL then we're communicating over a telecomm control plane infrastructure built solely on Java Enterprise Edition.
There are certainly many java capable devices out there, but seriously.... you want us to believe that these devices all have a "telecomm control plane infrastructure built solely on Java"?
Try and make it a bit more believable next time.
You forgot to mention Obama's Affordable Care Act is 100% implemented on Java EE2.
That's old news. TIA and other international telecommunications consortiums and standard bodies mandate open source Java Enterprise Edition. This mandate is encoded into national law in most countries.
Oracle should lose this case, if justice is served. Oracle is claiming copyright infringement and patent infringement.But Google did not copy any Java components controlled by Oracle and protected by copyright law, and most of the patents originally named in the suit did not survive re-examination by the patent office, nor are these patents that relevant to an Android implementation.Android can run some Java code on a Google developed "Dalvik" virtual machine, incoporating some Apache Harmony classes (libraries) that implement some of the API's in the Java specification.As these are separate implementations, not based on Java implementations from Oracle, this software doesn't infringe on the copyrights of the Oracle implementations, in any normal way that copyright law usually protects software. Oracle is taking the interesting position that the Android implementation (and specification) infringes on the copyrights of the specifications (written documentation), and the overall selection, structure, and arrangement of the API's (the names of the classes and methods, and the names and order and number of arguments). These are basic things like using sqrt() to return the square root of a number. They are claiming that the Android implemenation is a derivative work, deriving not from existing implementations, but from the specification. This is an unusual definition of derivative work.Sun/Oracle also licensed a Java Compatibility Kit, which includes field of use restrictions, preventing the use of Java on mobile devices without another license from Sun/Oracle. If you want to call your implementation Java compatible, it must pass the tests in the Java Compatibility Kit, or you infringe the Java trademark.But Google and Apache did not require or use the Java Compatibility Kit, and are not subject to the terms of a license to which they did not agree, nor benefit from.If Oracle succeeds, this would have a negative effect on the perfectly legal and acceptable practice of "clean-room" implementations of anything based on published specifications. Imagine no one would be allowed to freely implement a compiler, interpreter, TCP/IP, HTTP, XML, ODF, W3C standards, ..., without risk of infringing some copyright or patent.If Oracle wins, Android will not be forced to be 100% compatible with Java ME. The lawsuit is not about making 100% compatibility with any Java implementation, or calling Android Java. It's about an injunction on Android and/or recovering damages, hopefully as a percentage of Google's ad revenue. This is mainly about Oracle getting money for nothing.
Write Once run Anywhere wrote:
Oracle Javasoft vs Google Android trial begins tomorrow in San Francisco. Microsoft slayer & CA Prop 8 killer David Boies represents Javasoft. I predict Javasoft will win, Android forced to release internal version 100% compatible with Java Mobile Edition.
this case is deja vu. android already admitted it infringed on javasoft copyrights by offering to settle the case before trial. thus your arguments are non-applicable. the only thing left is for the jury to decide the damages and remedies. the damages could go into the billions but will likely be in the low hundreds of millions. android will be forced to adhere to java mobile. the precedent was set years ago when the same federal court ruled in favor of javasoft and ordered microsoft to adhere to the java spec.
asdjklasjd wrote:
Microsoft is still in business and never split up.
Netscape failed to retake any significant share of the browser market and got bought out by AOL, which is an obsolete company now. Sun failed to become the force it had hoped to become with Java and got bought out by Oracle.
Did David Boies really slay Microsoft?
Yes and no. If the SC hadn't awarded the 2000 election to Bush and thus handed Ayatollah As\scroft the Justice Dept, MSFT probably would have been split up.
Huh? I think you got a couple of facts wrong.Google is the one on trial, not "android".Offering to settle is not an admission of infringement.Google did not offer to settle, or agree to any settlement. That's why the case is going to court.I did not make any arguments, but simply cited facts about the case, or repeated the claims of the two parties.The trial just started. The jury gets to listen to a 10 week trial, and then decide if any damage occurred at all.The judge also gets to decide a few things, as a matter of law.The damage has already been limited to only a few million, if any damage is found to have occurred at all.Oracle is not asking for java mobile compliance as relief. They are asking for an injunction and for damages (money).Microsoft licensed Java from Sun, and violated the terms of the license, with incompatible extensions to their Java implementation.Microsoft and Sun eventually settled this suit (and some others) with a wide ranging agreement, without any federal ruling.This agreement eventually ended the development of Microsoft's Java, but Microsoft created new languages J# and C#.Google did not take a license from Sun/Oracle, and do not call their implementation Java.There is nothing that binds Google to the terms of any Oracle Java related license.Oracle's only recourse is to prove copyright infringement, and/or patent infringement.
wrinkle engr par excellance wrote:
this case is deja vu. android already admitted it infringed on javasoft copyrights by offering to settle the case before trial. thus your arguments are non-applicable. the only thing left is for the jury to decide the damages and remedies. the damages could go into the billions but will likely be in the low hundreds of millions. android will be forced to adhere to java mobile. the precedent was set years ago when the same federal court ruled in favor of javasoft and ordered microsoft to adhere to the java spec.
The goal of both Javasoft and Android should be 100% compatability with 4.1 Billion Java devices. Android is such a minute fraction of Java. If Android pys Javasoft 100 Million that's only a drop in the bucket. Javasoft would take 5 million to cover legal costs in Android promised alignment with Java. Microsoft refused and lost the lawsuit with Javasoft. Let's hope Android has more brains than Microsoft.
Honestly those two geek companies are in the same town and should team up since they have dominated the open software industry for decades already and are the two key backbone companies of computer software in the world.
Larry doesn't "team". Nor has Larry ever contributed to "open software", he just bought Sun which inconveniently had a huge pile of it: Java, Solaris, OpenOffice, MySQL, etc. In fact, killing off MySQL was without a doubt a big part of the motivation for the acquisition of Sun. Oracle is anti-open and always has been. Google is pro-open to a point (didn't publish their search algorithms, but published whitepapers that led to MapReduce and the Hadoop open-source movement).
I can't offer a qualified legal opinion on the dispute but I hope for technology's sake that Oracle loses this case.
This is the Trial of the Century for Silicon Valley. The promise of Java "Write once run Anywhere" is at stake for 4 billion computers. The trial is a repeat of the Sun v Microsoft trial. I can't believe Google is so stupid to try and change precedent.
With Java's Four billion phones, pads, personal computers, smart phones, and servers at stake, attorney Boies has a lot on his shoulders.
While 100% Java compatibility was/is a goal of Sun/Oracle/Java, and it should be a goal of the Java Community, it is not a goal (nor should it be necessarily) of Google/Android. In 2006, Google rejected the initial offer from Sun for 100 million for cooperation incorporating Java into the Android OS. I think Google counter-proposed 20 million, but in any case Sun and Google did not reach any agreement. Shortly thereafter Sun began unencumbering and releasing Java under the GPLv2. Google did not sign up to Sun's "Write once, run anywhere" promise.
The Sun/Microsoft case is completely different then the current Oracle/Google case. Sun/Microsoft was essentially a trademark dispute. Microsoft was developing and selling a product using the trademarked name Java, under a license from Sun. The license to the trademark requires 100% compatibility. Microsoft did not implement important parts of Java (e.g. RMI and JNI) and added some platform specific extensions, that violated the terms of the license, and the spirit of "write once, run anywhere".
The Google(Android)/Oracle dispute is alleged copyright and patent infringement. Although Android is not 100% Java compatible, Google does not sell any product using the Java name, and Oracle is not claiming trademark infringement, or a violation of any license based on a lack of 100% compatibility. Android is not directly compatible with Java byte-code, and does not contain a Java virtual machine. Android can interpret/run many Java programs from source code, or converted from Java byte-code to a Dalvik executable, using their own custom built virtual machine (Dalvik), not subject to any of Oracle's license terms.
Oracle's copyright position is curious for a couple of reasons. Oracle claims that Google's implementation of Java class libraries infringes the copyright of Oracle's specifications, and the structure, selection, and arrangement of Oracle's implementation (some kind of higher "collective" abstraction of library components). Starting in 2006, Sun released many components of Java under GPLv2. This includes Java ME, and Java SE, and their Java class libraries. But Oracle is not suing for a violation of the GPL. Oracle is not claiming that Google copied parts of Oracle's Java implementation. They are claiming that Google's implementation is a derivative work of the specification, and copies the structure of Oracle's implementation.
By claiming copyright infringement of these class libraries, Oracle is effectively asserting copyright ownership over libraries developed independently (and copyrighted) by Apache, and distributed openly (without Oracle restrictions) under the Apache license. Sun never sued Apache, and the Sun CEO concurred there was no problem with Apache Harmony, as long as it wasn't called Java. Then there would be a trademark and compatibility issue (like with Microsoft). If Oracle wins, there is nothing to stop Oracle from asserting control over all "free" Java implementations, e.g. GNU classpath and IcedTea.
There are not 4.1 billion Java devices at stake here. Whatever the outcome of this trial, all 4.1 billion devices will support Java the same as before.
What is at stake is how Oracle wants to extend copyright law. They want the copyright on their specifications to be able to control any implementation of the specification. This would forbid anyone to develop any implementation of a specification, without a license from the publisher of the specification. This goes far beyond Java, and 4.1 billion Java devices, and far beyond Google, Oracle, Android and Apache, and far beyond copyright law as it was intended.
The "patent" trial will come later, but basically all of the patents, except two, have not survived re-examination. One of the two has been initially rejected too, but the examination process is not finished. So only one minor patent remains in the case.
Good luck to Larry Ellison and Java. The jury won't believe Android's lie about a clean room R&D of Java when the whole Android team lives in the same city as Java Corp and they went to the same Top 10 schools like USC, Cal, UCSD, UCLA, Stanford, CMU, etc.
Compatabilty with 4 Billion java devices are the key to the future of smart phones and pad computers. Even the dorks at Microsoft have %100 Java adherence in Windows 8.
However this trial may be a big charade and totally moot since the Arabs, European Union, and Indians will soon mandate 100% Java compatability for ALL phones, smartphones, personal computers & pads, telecomm & IT equipment, and consumer devices. The US Gov't has already mandated 100% Java compatability for Health Care Reform Act of 2012 aka Obama Care.
These replies are too painful to read. Besides the wishful "Good luck to Larry Ellison and Java", there is not one single correct statement here.
Oracle Arena wrote:
Good luck to Larry Ellison and Java. The jury won't believe Android's lie about a clean room R&D of Java when the whole Android team lives in the same city as Java Corp and they went to the same Top 10 schools like USC, Cal, UCSD, UCLA, Stanford, CMU, etc.
Compatabilty with 4 Billion java devices are the key to the future of smart phones and pad computers. Even the dorks at Microsoft have %100 Java adherence in Windows 8.
However this trial may be a big charade and totally moot since the Arabs, European Union, and Indians will soon mandate 100% Java compatability for ALL phones, smartphones, personal computers & pads, telecomm & IT equipment, and consumer devices. The US Gov't has already mandated 100% Java compatability for Health Care Reform Act of 2012 aka Obama Care.