Questions about Summer of Malmo

Q: How many miles should I run?

A: I don't know, but more than you've been doing. The time is now to find out exactly where your personal sweet spot is. The main goals are to (1) increase the mileage and (2) to run doubles. Some of you may be running over 100 miles per week for the first time, other still think that running 70 mpw is a lot. It's OK, this PROGRAM will accommodate everyone.

Here is what I would do, assuming your summer is about 12 weeks:

Wk1 - 30 miles

Wk2 - 35 miles

Wk3 - 40 miles

Wk4 - 35 miles

Wk5 - 40 miles

Wk6 - 45 miles

Wk7 - 50 miles

Wk8 - 50 miles

Wk9 - 45 miles

Wk 10 - 50 miles

Wk 11 - 55 miles

Wk 12 - 60 miles

That is a lot slower build up than SoM suggests I believe but if you are injury prone you need to build up slowly and cautiously.

As far as the break down:

Wk 1 - 4 just distance work, no speed, no hard effort just solid getting in the miles and building your miles up.

Wk 5,6,7 I would through in one good hard tempo run/week, probably starting out with a 3 mile tempo week 5, and adding a mile each week.

Wk 8 no tempo

Wk 9,10,11,12 5 mile tempos each week + an additional interval type workout each week (16X200, or 400s or 800s) with very short recovery and a medium effort just to maintain some speed.

I'd do a long run every week past week 4.

As far as doubles go, since this is your first time doing doubles (I assume) start at real slow and easy. I know malmo would disagree and thats fine, but what I would do is add a double a week starting around week 3, until I was doing 4 doubles a week. Personally I think if you are doing more than 4 doubles a week in high school you are really pushing it and getting significant deterioration on your return on investment, especially with it being your first year and all, (I would actually suggest 3).

The biggest thing will be staying injury free, run on grass or dirt as much as absolutely possible, which should be every single run. I don't think there is a place in this country where you can not find a decent soft surface to run on. Stretch well and make sure your shoes are good to go (as an aside I too had injury problems in high school, consistently, until I switched to a light weight shoe, pretty much a racing flat and that made all the difference, but again I was running on soft surfaces).

You are going to be tired coming into the cross season most likely, and your first few races could be poor (or they may be great) don't let that discourage you if it does happen, come november with a proper tapper and more time to get used to the miles you should see large improvements.

Lastly, I doubt you are an 800m guy. It sounds like you are probably a 1500m/2mile/5k type guy who has good natural speed off low millage so you think you are an 800 guy, but if you develop that endurance to go with that natural speed I think you would make a decent miler/2 mile and probably a decent 5k guy in college. Who knows. (even if you are an 8 guy you need to be doing more miles anyway). Best of luck, enjoy high school summers and make them count, you don't get a second shot as you will find out one day.

I guess I did not really address your question on doubles. What I would do is start off doing 3 miles for my second run of the day and slowly and gradually work up to 4 miles for every double, maybe 5, by the end of the summer. I always structured doubles so that they were no split in half (5 am, 5pm) but rather the morning run was shorter (typically if it was an 8 miler in the Pm that would get a 5 miler in the am, 7Pm = 4 am). The length of your double should build up parallel with the amount of total miles done. And doubles are not a spring board into longer single runs, they have their own purpose, if that makes sense.

OldTimeMiler wrote:

As far as doubles go, since this is your first time doing doubles (I assume) start at real slow and easy. I know malmo would disagree and thats fine,

You know that? Did I ever say that? Refresh my memory please. Thank you.

Please do not take this guys advice about SOM. He is not authorized to speak for me, and he certainly doesn't understand SOM at all. He doesn't get it.

OldTimeMiler wrote:

You are going to be tired coming into the cross season most likely, and your first few races could be poor (or they may be great)

You are speaking from your own experience. The point of SOM is not to become stale from the Summer training. He should come into the Fall season invigorated and real to rock.

MERICUHHH, there is no mileage prescription in SOM, just that you start training consistently and well within your boundaries during the Summer.

The notion that running singles is more beneficial is an Urban Myth that's tougher to kill than Jason Voorhees. You are not running doubles as a springboard to longer singles, you are running doubles because it's time for you to start training like the big boys do. Make it routine, make it a part of your daily life.

You've never run doubles before and I didn't explicitly say what to do. Try this, start off with 2 or 3 miles each morning. You don't ever have to increase them at all if you don't want to, but start doing those morning runs. For most high school kids 3-4 miles in the AM will be sufficient anyway. Heck, for most college runners it would be just fine too.

Long runs. There is no reason for you, or 99% of all high school kids to do regular, weekly long runs. None at all. That's not the same as saying not to ever do them. In fact I'd argue the opposite - no NEED to do them every once and a while, lets say every 3rd week or so. But first and formost you NEED to focus on the other six days of the week before you even think of doing a long run.

So try this: run 2-3 miles, 5 days a week in the mornings. The balance in the evening.

Since it's obvious that you are relatively new, then limit those tempo runs to 3-4 miles. Those longer repeats, limit them to 400-1000m repeats.

Now, HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART. When you are running those repeats completely throw away everything that you've done in the past as a frame of refernce and learn a new trick. Those repeats are NOT going to be difficult, they are not going to leave you beat down, and your eyes better not be rolling around in your head. You should be in complete control, feeling that you are running too slow. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. That means you are not concerned about the rest interval at all. All SOM goals for you is to develop you aeobically during the Summer without beating you down.

Only those shorter intervals in the 150-300 range should you ever feel that you are running anyway near your top end.

If you want my opinion on exact paces for you to do then answer me thes questions.

1) How fast can you normally run 10x400m and with what rest?

2) How fast/far are your normal tempo runs?

3) How fast could you normally do 200m repeats, lets say 10-16 of them?

4) how fast can you normally do mile repeats? How many of them? How much rest?

5) What are your best times?

Hi Malmo I'll answer those 5 questions for me (and others in similar shape).

1) about 68-70 with 2min rest.

2)around 5:50-6 min pace

3) probably around 33

4) with 1 min rest about 5:30-35. with 3-4 minute rest about 5:10-15

5) 16:02 5k, 34;45 xc 10k, 6:19 pace for 14 miles, 9:20 3k, 4:42 mile

More

max219 wrote:

Hi Malmo I'll answer those 5 questions for me (and others in similar shape).

1) about 68-70 with 2min rest.

2)around 5:50-6 min pace

3) probably around 33

4) with 1 min rest about 5:30-35. with 3-4 minute rest about 5:10-15

5) 16:02 5k, 34;45 xc 10k, 6:19 pace for 14 miles, 9:20 3k, 4:42 mile

Very good.

Q: Go over that again?

A: (1) twice-a-day, as many days as you can - four, five or six days a week

(2) increase your mileage, look, you guys are made of the same muscle and bone as me, you can do it. Find your own sweet spot

(3) meet with a group twice a week

(4) one tempo run of just four to six miles and

(5) one workout of 1200m to 2000m repeats OR 16 to 24 by 150m to 300m

(5) don't try to impress anyone, run within yourself

(6) relax, the real training doesn't begin until September

Very good. Being that your best mile is 4:42 I would suggest that you limit the repeats to 1200m max, and your tempo run to 3-4 miles. The point of the training is to get your body to runner faster, if you are mile and 2000m repeats and 5 or 6 mile tempo runs you are never going to run very fast.

My recommnedations:

Tues 3-4 mile tempo run

Fri 12-16 x 150-300m

Tues 3-4 mile tempo run

Fri 12 x 400, or 8x600, or 6x800, or 5x1000, or 4x1200

Sample paces:

Shorter repeats aka neuromuscular training

16 x 150 accel 50, sprint 50, stride 50

12 x 200 accel 100m, sprint 50, stride 50

10 x 300 accel 100m, sprint 100m. stride 100m

Full recovery between each. slow jog or walk if you have to. The objective here is to work on the mechanics of running fast and to hit close to top end, then stride out to the finish. It's OK for you to run these hard enough that you feel a good buzz after the session. Again, you are trying to teach your body how to sprint, and by extension, to run faster.

Longer repeats.

12 x 400

8 x 600

6 x 800

5 x 1000

4 x 1200

Run them at a little faster than your tempo pace, I'd say about 5:50 pace. In fact, I'd urge you to run 12x400 the first day at 5:50 pace with 60-75s rest on the first session just to get your bearings straight. If it doesn't feel easy you are running too hard. Don't be in a hurry to run fast. You have a long Summer just maintain, rejuvenate and enjoy your Summer.

Heck, you could even do repeat 200s at 38-40 and that would be a fine substitution too.

Tempo Runs:

3-4 miles at 5:50-6:00

Hopefully something magical will happen during the Summer, and you'll naturally drift towards faster tempo runs. I'd really cap it at 4 miles for your ability right now.

The point here is that nothing I've proposed should seem very difficult because it's not supposed to be difficult. Let your Kung Fu come to you, don't try to force it, grasshopper.

To give you an example of what I'd certify SOM for a 14:00 college 5k runner. 12x400 at 68-70 with a 1:00 jog. You might say "that's ridiculous, I can do that" and you'd be right. But if you look at it from a different perspective thats 4:32-4:40 pace, right? 4:32-4:40 is faster than any 14:00 5k runner is likely to achieve in a 10k race.

Does that make sense to you?

12x 400 at 65s would also be certified SOM for a 14:00 5k runner. Any faster, not really.

1) I can easily do 10x400 at 1:10 with roughly a minute break.

2) Never did mile repeats, was injured during XC and never did them for Track

3) Last 200m repeat workout I did was 8x200 at 28-29 average (windy though). For 10-16, I'd say around 29-31.

4) See answer to #2

5) 400: 53.2, 800: 1:59, 1200: 3:15 1600: 4:49 3000: 10:05 (last year). Ran a 16:40 3 miler off of less than 35 miles a week in the summer.

MERICUHHH wrote:

1) I can easily do 10x400 at 1:10 with roughly a minute break.

2) Never did mile repeats, was injured during XC and never did them for Track

3) Last 200m repeat workout I did was 8x200 at 28-29 average (windy though). For 10-16, I'd say around 29-31.

4) See answer to #2

5) 400: 53.2, 800: 1:59, 1200: 3:15 1600: 4:49 3000: 10:05 (last year). Ran a 16:40 3 miler off of less than 35 miles a week in the summer.

OK, MERICUHHH. You're in pretty much the same place as the previous poster is, only you have a bit more leg speed. With you, though, I'd have your repeats look something like this:

Shorter repeats aka neuromuscular training

20 x 150 accel 50, sprint 50, stride 50

16 x 200 accel 100m, sprint 50, stride 50

12 x 300 accel 100m, sprint 100m. stride 100m

Full recovery between each. slow jog or walk if you have to. The objective here is to work on the mechanics of running fast and to hit close to top end, then stride out to the finish.

Longer repeats. All at about 5:50 pace or better. Again, you should feel comfortable. If you want to knock out a bunch of 400s at 75s pace, that's fine with me too.

6 x 800

5 x 1000

4 x 1200

4x mile

seems a big misnomer to call shorter repeats neuromuscular training but others (long repeats, tempo runs) are not.

Why? neuromuscular facilitation coming from shorter faster repeats will involve many more motor units than running slower longer repeat regardless of the lack of current aerobic fitness. As the runner improves his fitness it will become easier for him to run faster and for longer durations, and will do this by increasing the length of his repeats AND the pace.

Does it work for busy Masters runners?

I don't know. I'm assuming a masters runner is never really 'between seasons'. Why don't you try and report back to me?

Just a brief question about the short intervals, for someone who is significantly slower (20 min 5k), is it still appropriate to be near an all out sprint for those short intervals (obviously the striding phase won't be as fast).

Also as clarification what does full recovery mean? Body back down to normal walking/easy jog state?

Really appreciate the help and advice!

Full recovery (for the shorter sessions) is what ever you feel is good enough. Don't be in a hurry to get to the next repeat. Yes, get close to all-out then let your momentum cary you as you stride out.

Ex. If you are doing 150s then jog real slow for 250. Walk if you don't feel ready for the next one..

Now if you are doing short intervals as substitutions for the longer ones, an example would be 200m repeats at what would be solid mile repeat pace, then take a minute rest. Just enough time for you to turn around and begin the next repeat.

The example to follow was with me, coming off injury, jumping in with Brad Hudson, Colin Dalton, Peter Fonseca, and Terrance Mahon in 1989. Those guys were running 5 mile tempo runs at about 4:45-4:50 pace. For me to go out and run a 5 mile tempo run at 6:00 pace would have been painful and just plain unproductive. So what I did was run 200m at a time with the group at 36s. I waited 72s until the group came around and jumped in at the back. 200m. Kept repeating that until they had done 5 miles. For every 600m they ran, I ran 200m.

Then the next workout I did it again, and each week I ran a little bit further, and kept progressing until soon enough I was doing the entire session with them. I was always running at a deliberate and conrtolled pace. I was never busting my butt, and it was a positive experience. I think for those guys it became a mental break for them each time I jumped in with the pack.

I see so many people do everything upside down. They start off early in the season with the idea that they should do long, slow interval sessions and by the end of the season they are doing short, fast intervals -- that is to say, short and fast that have nothing to do with their demands of their chosen races. What they really need to be doing is to start off with shorter faster intervals and lengthen them, and zone in on their actual race paces by the end of the season. In other words train at the speeds you intend to race at. Get more and more race specific as you approach your target dates.

Make sense, or no?

If you want my opinion on exact paces for you to do then answer me thes questions.

1) How fast can you normally run 10x400m and with what rest?

2) How fast/far are your normal tempo runs?

3) How fast could you normally do 200m repeats, lets say 10-16 of them?

4) how fast can you normally do mile repeats? How many of them? How much rest?

5) What are your best times?[/quote]

I am doing the Summer of Malmo and it would be great if I could get some appropriate pace advice. If it helps I am a 8k cross guy in the fall and 1500/5k in the spring.

1)68 w/1min rest

2)4-7 miles @5:45

3)31 w/1min rest

4)5:10 w/90sec rest. 4 repeats total

5) 1500 4:20, 5k 16:40, 8k 27:30, Half 1:17

If you want my opinion on exact paces for you to do then answer me thes questions.

1) How fast can you normally run 10x400m and with what rest?

2) How fast/far are your normal tempo runs?

3) How fast could you normally do 200m repeats, lets say 10-16 of them?

4) how fast can you normally do mile repeats? How many of them? How much rest?

5) What are your best times?[/quote]

1) 66-67 with 200 rest

2) 3-4 miles @ 5:20 per mile

3) 31-32

4) 4:55 with 600 rest

5) 1500-4:09, 3000-8:50, 5000-14:53, 8k xc-26:30, 10000-32:40

I don't think I have been racing to my potential at the longer distances. I am hoping to run under 25 min for 8k on the xc course this fall. I think I just need a little guidance in my summer training and you seem to know your stuff.

YouTryna wrote:1) 66-67 with 200 rest

2) 3-4 miles @ 5:20 per mile

3) 31-32

4) 4:55 with 600 rest

5) 1500-4:09, 3000-8:50, 5000-14:53, 8k xc-26:30, 10000-32:40

I don't think I have been racing to my potential at the longer distances. I am hoping to run under 25 min for 8k on the xc course this fall. I think I just need a little guidance in my summer training and you seem to know your stuff.

You haven't. With those PRs (5000m and under) you should be 25:0x for a cross course (24:3x on the track) and 30:4x for the 10000m in PR shape. Sub 25 is definitely doable for next season. I'd probably focus on working up to longer tempos during the summer, especially for the cross season. Hell, you have a faster 5000m PR than me (15:11) and I split 32:30-33:00 for 10000m during track tempos (7-8 miles). That should be cake for you.

I will... I'm actually between seasons. It's been 10 years of active recovery!

I never ran doubles and certainly did the intervals backwards as you point out (long and slow to short and fast).

I can't get the peak years back, but want to make the best of the 40s and 50s.

Thanks for the input.