• Please help with
      • Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 6:55AM
      • Please help with
      • Hi there,

        I've been a lurker on this forum for a while, so please don't roast me too hard on my first post.

        I want to be better next time - so please help me understand what happened.

        Context: Just finished Berlin 3:07:XX, about 9 minutes slower than my PR from 3 months ago 2:58.
        Early 30's, 1 year of running experience.

        Splits: 1:29, 1:38

        I ran even splits of 6:46 ish following the 3:00 pacer for 19 miles, then my quads started twitching uncontrollably out of the blue, and I had to walk like 3 minutes, and slow jog until mile 25, where a "second wind" came out of nowhere.

        I can think of three reasons about the bonk:

        1) Jet lag - got poor (
    • Hmmmm....
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 6:57AM - in reply to Please help with
      • Hmmmm....
      • That’s muscular failure. Nothing you can do about that at the time.
    • Please help with
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 6:58AM - in reply to Please help with
      • Please help with
      • OP - not sure why post got cut off

        1) Poor sleep - got ~ 5 hrs for the previous two nights

        2) Poor (?) taper? - didn't run much at all except for a 9 mile easy jog two days before

        3) Poor nutrition? I doubt this once, because I did take a GU every 5 miles, which worked out before

        4) Poor hydration? Prior to the race, I made 3 bathroom stops emptying the bladder, and didn't take any liquids to replenish.

        5) Lack of long runs in the training cycle - for the past 3 months, I only did two 18 mile runs ~ MP - not sure if this had anything to do with endurance.

        The bottom line is this: Is it possible that I run 2:58, then run a 3:07 just three months after, with a decent training cycle? Is there that much variable in marathon performance?
    • Hmmmmm agin
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 7:05AM - in reply to Please help with
      • Hmmmmm agin
      • Three months later - so that’s basically a full training cycle and you did 3 long runs?
    • Ipppppspspspspsps
    • shohohe
      registered
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 7:19AM - in reply to Ipppppspspspspsps
      • shohohe
        registered
      • Ipppppspspspspsps wrote:

        Ooooppsss two long runs.

        1/10.

        Yeah, that was easy. 5 x 18 is the minimum.
    • This is op
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 7:20AM - in reply to Hmmmmm agin
      • This is op
      • Hmmmmm agin wrote:

        Three months later - so that’s basically a full training cycle and you did 3 long runs?

        Hey that's old feedback. I only did 10-12 milers. I thot increasing miles per week to 70 would make up for lack of long runs. If you think this had a huge impact that's great I can learn from that.

        Can u care to explain why high mileage is not a substitute for long runs?
    • Op again here
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 7:27AM - in reply to shohohe
      • Op again here
      • Hey thanks. Like I said I'm a relative noob.

        But care to explain why high mileage on ten milers is not a substitute for twenty milers?
    • dunes runner
      registered
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 10:03AM - in reply to Please help with
      • dunes runner
        registered
      • Please help with wrote:
        1) Poor sleep - got ~ 5 hrs for the previous two nights
        2) Poor (?) taper? - didn't run much at all except for a 9 mile easy jog two days before
        3) Poor nutrition? I doubt this once, because I did take a GU every 5 miles, which worked out before
        4) Poor hydration? Prior to the race, I made 3 bathroom stops emptying the bladder, and didn't take any liquids to replenish.
        5) Lack of long runs in the training cycle - for the past 3 months, I only did two 18 mile runs ~ MP - not sure if this had anything to do with endurance.

        The bottom line is this: Is it possible that I run 2:58, then run a 3:07 just three months after, with a decent training cycle? Is there that much variable in marathon performance?

        The main thing was poor training.

        You need to have consistent mileage, and a well planned schedule that you complete every week.

        You need to have better and more frequent long runs.

        Your taper was terrible. Don't taper so much. Make sure you're getting enough rest and sleep. Take naps.

        Don't bother with gu. That stuff is nonsense. You don't need to eat sugar in a marathon, and it can cause you to bonk.

        Drink plenty of water, especially the day before, and especially the morning of the marathon.

        Go to the bathroom a few times before starting. You should be able to break 3 hours easily with better training.
    • 2 marathons/year
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 11:07AM - in reply to Please help with
      • 2 marathons/year
      • I think that, for most people, 3 months are not enough to recover physically and mentally, and then peaking again for the next marathon, especially after breaking 3 hours. PRing twice in a row in such a short time frame is not easy.

        Contrary to most here, I don't think long rungs have to be very long. I ran 2:50 and 2:47 last year and never run more than 16 miles in training. With 60-70 miles a week, this is obviously enough to break 3 in Berlin. On the other hand, I would still advise you to run more than 12 miles regularly if you don't run any 20 mile long runs.
    • dunes runner
      registered
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 12:07PM - in reply to 2 marathons/year
      • dunes runner
        registered
      • 2 marathons/year wrote:

        I think that, for most people, 3 months are not enough to recover physically and mentally, and then peaking again for the next marathon, especially after breaking 3 hours. PRing twice in a row in such a short time frame is not easy.

        That's total nonsense. An all out marathon every 3 or 4 weeks would be good.
    • NewtotheSouthSide
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 4:14PM - in reply to dunes runner
      • NewtotheSouthSide
      • dunes runner wrote:

        2 marathons/year wrote:

        I think that, for most people, 3 months are not enough to recover physically and mentally, and then peaking again for the next marathon, especially after breaking 3 hours. PRing twice in a row in such a short time frame is not easy.

        That's total nonsense. An all out marathon every 3 or 4 weeks would be good.

        I dunno, I completely disagree. I think you *can* run a marathon every 3 or 4 weeks but you won't PR or make big improvements.

        What did your recovery look like after your marathon? I'm not a big fan of super long build-ups like 18-24 weeks. I prefer 12-16 weeks or so. After a marathon I like to take 1-2 weeks off or with running every other day in the 2nd week. After that I'll run easy to close out a month, spend the next month getting back to regular running and workouts and by 3 months back in the full swing of training/workouts. At that point you're looking at 12-16 weeks until another attempt at the marathon. 12 weeks, hoping to improve, feels a bit rushed if you never fully recovered.

        Maybe jet lag or fueling are the culprits. The best marathons I've run are when I've eaten and drank the most on course and know that I'm not jetlagged. I say rest up and circle something in the spring or even next fall. You could take a build up to get your half PR down in the spring and then really attack a fall marathon. Just my $.02. ((that said I'm not always the best listener -- I had a sub-par NYC Marathon & then went and ran CIM 4 weeks later and ended up PR-ing. I did take plenty of down time after that and did almost no workouts in between))
    • Post
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 5:36PM - in reply to This is op
      • Post
      • Each body is different. You’ll have some people that thrive on the Handon’s Plan (which emphasizes a constant grind and lower end plans top out at a 16 mile long run on a 60+ mile week). But the reality is, many folks need to at least have some experience with solid long mileage. It’s very difficult to replicate the way the body breaks down at higher mileage for a long single run, the body needs a stimulus in order to have the physiological response.

        Likely, your culprit is 1 and 3. 2 is only a factor if you didn’t drink the day before. But poor sleep and jet leg are awful and can have a significant physical impact.
    • Post
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 5:37PM - in reply to Post
      • Post
      • Yeah, that shouldn’t have been #3. But bonking at 19 means that you went out too fast for what you’re trained for.
    • dunes runner
      registered
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/16/2018 6:20PM - in reply to NewtotheSouthSide
      • dunes runner
        registered
      • NewtotheSouthSide wrote:

        What did your recovery look like after your marathon?

        12 miles at base pace the following day,
        98 miles the following week, all at base pace, no hard workouts,
        ending with a 10000m race on the track, pulling away the last 5 laps to win by 10 seconds.
        Had I been preparing for another marathon, I would have done a marathon paced workout instead of the 10k.
    • Easy Peasy
      registered
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/17/2018 10:52AM - in reply to dunes runner
      • Easy Peasy
        registered
      • dunes runner wrote:

        Please help with wrote:
        1) Poor sleep - got ~ 5 hrs for the previous two nights
        2) Poor (?) taper? - didn't run much at all except for a 9 mile easy jog two days before
        3) Poor nutrition? I doubt this once, because I did take a GU every 5 miles, which worked out before
        4) Poor hydration? Prior to the race, I made 3 bathroom stops emptying the bladder, and didn't take any liquids to replenish.
        5) Lack of long runs in the training cycle - for the past 3 months, I only did two 18 mile runs ~ MP - not sure if this had anything to do with endurance.

        The bottom line is this: Is it possible that I run 2:58, then run a 3:07 just three months after, with a decent training cycle? Is there that much variable in marathon performance?

        The main thing was poor training.

        You need to have consistent mileage, and a well planned schedule that you complete every week.

        You need to have better and more frequent long runs.

        Your taper was terrible. Don't taper so much. Make sure you're getting enough rest and sleep. Take naps.

        Don't bother with gu. That stuff is nonsense. You don't need to eat sugar in a marathon, and it can cause you to bonk.

        Drink plenty of water, especially the day before, and especially the morning of the marathon.

        Go to the bathroom a few times before starting. You should be able to break 3 hours easily with better training.

        Agreed with everything (except the Gu comment). Especially your taper. If I went into a marathon with that kind of taper I would run the worst race of my life.
    • Please help with
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/17/2018 11:09AM - in reply to Easy Peasy
      • Please help with
      • Thanks.

        Would you be able to point out exactly what was wrong with my taper?

        Was it the fact that I didn't much at all?

        Or was it that I did a 9 mile run two days prior to the race?

        Any resource you recommend for reading up on taper strategy?
    • start here
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/17/2018 11:37AM - in reply to Please help with
      • start here
      • Did you really do no running your last week, then 9 miles a few days before? I suspect not, but that's what your post sort of sounds like. What mileage did you actually run each day once you started reducing mileage?

        A typical marathon taper might last 1 week minimum up to 4 weeks maximum, although 2-3 weeks are more common, and involve progressively running less volume. So if you peak at 80 mpw in week M-4, you might run 64 in M-3, 50 in M-2, and 40 (including the race) in M-1.
    • Yeah...sure...
      • RE: Just ran Berlin, 10 minutes slower than PR. Please help with a post-mortem 9/17/2018 11:41AM - in reply to dunes runner
      • Yeah...sure...
      • dunes runner wrote:

        NewtotheSouthSide wrote:

        What did your recovery look like after your marathon?

        12 miles at base pace the following day,
        98 miles the following week, all at base pace, no hard workouts,
        ending with a 10000m race on the track, pulling away the last 5 laps to win by 10 seconds.
        Had I been preparing for another marathon, I would have done a marathon paced workout instead of the 10k.

        YAWN