yesstiles wrote:
Seyta wrote:
StormSoup wrote:
Seyta wrote:
Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz.
Are you that ignorant?
Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........
Piss-Poor competition era. This wasn't an era in which high schoolers were so spectacular that they could beat international competition. This was an era in which there was quite literally no money in professional running, and senior-level competition was so pathetic that exceptionally talented high schoolers could beat them.
Also, what is wrong with you people and thinking literally everything was on a dirt track? Lindgren did not run a 13:44 on dirt. This is very similar to how people seem to think every single run by Ryun was on a dirt track, regardless of whether or not that was the case. Lindgren also did not have a cross-country race against two Olympic Champions in high school, unless nearly every source regarding his early distance-running prowess somehow missed it.
Bluntly speaking, Lindgren fails to make the list explicitly because Ryun 100% beats him out in his only claim (historical prowess). Every single record Lindgren had was broken, and as far as cross country was concerned, he objectively cannot compare to Ritzenhein. His mile is not the best. His two-mile is not the best. His 5000m is not the best. His cross-country credentials is not the best. You do not get to be the "greatest", when someone has a better claim than you on every point you can make.
I hate to correct you, but here goes:
Lindgren still holds the high school record officially for 3-miles at 13:17 flat, run on a dirt track in Jamaica the same weekend as running a 4:01 mile at the same meet.
....I could go on.
rojo wrote:
I loved the NY Times article on Katelyn Tuohy and US female HS phenoms. In it, I was struck by this quote:
“She might be the best high school runner ever already,” said Jim Mitchell, a Bronxville High School coach who has guided dozens of elite female distance runners during his 40-year career, including, briefly, the last great phenom, Mary Cain.
Is that true? I assume not but don't really know enough about it.
Historians, can you list the greatest US HS distance runners ever and their credentials while in HS?
HS Analysis wrote:
I think the first, and most obvious, comparison here is to compare Mary Cain’s prs vs Tuohy
Mary Cain- 1:59, 4:04, 8:58, 9:38(i), 15:45
Katelyn Tuohy- 2:09, 4:14, 9:05, 9:51(c), 15:37(i)
A couple of factors to consider here. Katelyn is much, much much better at Cross Country. Over 10+ speed ratings better. Also, every single one of Katelyn’s prs came in a race she won at the highschool level. Cain obviously ran most of her best times with competition. I think it’s hard to compare the two for this reason.
With that said, I don’t think Katelyn could run anywhere near 4:04 or 1:59 with competition, but she could be maybe 4:10 and 2:06. That’s still a long ways off Cain. Right now, I would say Katelyn will probably end being the XC goat while Cain will probably still be the track GOAT( an argument could be made for Efraimson as well, which I will detail below.).
Another contender for the best ever overall would be Alexa Efraimson, who ran 2:01/4:03/9:00. Again, all with competition. She was also, unlike Cain, a Gatorade runner of the year in XC. However, when you compare her best speed rating in XC to Katelyn’s, she’s still almost 7 points off( 165 to 172). Plus, Katelyn ran 172 multiple times. However, she’s closer in credentials in XC where her track times may be enough better to overcome any XC differentials. I would say Efraimson overall is the high school GOAT( including XC/ track).
It should be pointed out that Katelyn has taken a very different approach to track than those two did. She hasn’t been able to optimize her times as much because she’s winning everything. So, that should be acknowledge also.
Phantasy Star wrote:
Cain is the best. Range needs to be taken into account. She could dominate 800-5000. Like a female Webb.
Ritz and Webb are the GOATs of the modern era. I'd disqualify LV due to sketchy age issues.
Get your head out of the sand wrote:
Anybody that says anyone but Ryun and Decker have their head in the sand. Ryun made an Olympic team, beat the WR holder and ran under 4 how many times? He was completely dominant.
Decker had won indoor records at age 16 and beat world class Runner’s at 14.
Lane dodged Tuohy wrote:
ric flair woo wrote:
whatareyoulookingfor wrote:
considering her dominating xc times and national records in track events, it really is not a discussion.
exactly. not even a discussion at this point. she avoided lane at XC nationals. if you avoid racing the top girl then you are not the GOAT
NO. LANE AVOIDED TUOHY. IT WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN CLOSE LAST YEAR AS TUOHY WOULD HAVE DROPPED HER BY THE 2ND MILE.
Seyta wrote:
StormSoup wrote:
Seyta wrote:
Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz.
Are you that ignorant?
Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........
Piss-Poor competition era. This wasn't an era in which high schoolers were so spectacular that they could beat international competition. This was an era in which there was quite literally no money in professional running, and senior-level competition was so pathetic that exceptionally talented high schoolers could beat them.
Also, what is wrong with you people and thinking literally everything was on a dirt track? Lindgren did not run a 13:44 on dirt. This is very similar to how people seem to think every single run by Ryun was on a dirt track, regardless of whether or not that was the case. Lindgren also did not have a cross-country race against two Olympic Champions in high school, unless nearly every source regarding his early distance-running prowess somehow missed it.
Bluntly speaking, Lindgren fails to make the list explicitly because Ryun 100% beats him out in his only claim (historical prowess). Every single record Lindgren had was broken, and as far as cross country was concerned, he objectively cannot compare to Ritzenhein. His mile is not the best. His two-mile is not the best. His 5000m is not the best. His cross-country credentials is not the best. You do not get to be the "greatest", when someone has a better claim than you on every point you can make.
run with the wom wrote:
OK - we need a taxonomy.
1. Olympic team qualifier
2. Senior USA champion
3. World junior team qualifier/champion
4. USA junior team champion
5. High school national champion (Adidas/Footlocker champion in the past)
Records are good too but they need to be
So Sydney McLaughlin is the GOAT according to this criteria because she was on the Rio Olympic squad
Next, yes, Lynn Bjorklund. Two time SENIOR women's X-Country champion and SENIOR Women's 3,000 meter champion. Then set the 9:08 3000 meter HS record in the SENIOR USA-USSR dual meet in Kiev, Ukraine that held for over 25 years until Mary Cain came along.
Katlyn is good. Let's see what happens.
So... wrote:
Does this girls name just mindfu** people? Is it too hard to ask to spell one of the best high school females of all time name right?
ric flair woo wrote:
yesstiles wrote:
Seyta wrote:
StormSoup wrote:
Seyta wrote:
Viable candidates for "greatest US HS distance runners" should ONLY include Ryun, Webb, Verzbicas, and Ritz.
Are you that ignorant?
Gerry Lindgren easily displaces every boy on your list except Ryun. Lindgren won the Olympic Trials in high school, and ran 13:44 5k on a dirt track! Also 4:01 mile on dirt track.....8:40 2-mile on tiny 11-laps-to-a-mile indoor track....beat 2 Olympic Champions in XC race in high school....beat the Russians at 10k dual.....and on and on.........
Piss-Poor competition era. This wasn't an era in which high schoolers were so spectacular that they could beat international competition. This was an era in which there was quite literally no money in professional running, and senior-level competition was so pathetic that exceptionally talented high schoolers could beat them.
Also, what is wrong with you people and thinking literally everything was on a dirt track? Lindgren did not run a 13:44 on dirt. This is very similar to how people seem to think every single run by Ryun was on a dirt track, regardless of whether or not that was the case. Lindgren also did not have a cross-country race against two Olympic Champions in high school, unless nearly every source regarding his early distance-running prowess somehow missed it.
Bluntly speaking, Lindgren fails to make the list explicitly because Ryun 100% beats him out in his only claim (historical prowess). Every single record Lindgren had was broken, and as far as cross country was concerned, he objectively cannot compare to Ritzenhein. His mile is not the best. His two-mile is not the best. His 5000m is not the best. His cross-country credentials is not the best. You do not get to be the "greatest", when someone has a better claim than you on every point you can make.
I hate to correct you, but here goes:
Lindgren still holds the high school record officially for 3-miles at 13:17 flat, run on a dirt track in Jamaica the same weekend as running a 4:01 mile at the same meet.
....I could go on.
Galen Rupp shattered his 13:17 3 mile mark bro....