• patti
      • RE: Thanks Tinman 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Tinman
      • patti
      • Hi Tinman, thank you for explaining. This is exactly what my coach is having me do and the way you explained is exactly how he explained it. It really works. I am totally amazed at how this works, and it DOES work. My fast twitch (the little I have) are starting to get fired up. I'm in my 50's and am now training comfortably at 7:30 pace in just a matter of a few weeks. I've even approached nearly sub 6 in a training run doing surges.
    • patti
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to na
      • patti
      • of course I do, why not you? Haven't you ever done a workout similar to what Paul did? At one time I did 24 71-72 second 400's with a 200 jog between. He's the best and maybe that's why.
    • na
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to patti
      • na
      • patti wrote:
        of course I do, why not you? Haven't you ever done a workout similar to what Paul did? At one time I did 24 71-72 second 400's with a 200 jog between. He's the best and maybe that's why.
        Hicham El Guerrouj's 1500m WR pace is 54.92 per 400. Tergat has never given the impression of having thr ability to even approach that type of speed. I think El Guerrouj would find it tough, if he could do it, to do 10,000 meters of work at PR 1500 pace, especially with 1 min. rest at 6,000 feet. Some of these workouts the elites do must be unfounded.

        Coe: 6 x 800 in 1:50 on the road and the last in 1:46? Do you believe this? Why did Coe not run sub-3:40 for the mile? A lot of good 1500m runners can do 3-4 x 800 at 1500 pace and that's a race effort for them. IF you can do 6 800's that fast, that should DEFINITELY be your mile pace AT LEAST.
    • GILT
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to na
      • GILT
      • As I read through this massive thread, my overwhelming feeling was that running is science AND art. Too often we fixate on science. We shall always debate Lydiardism, Horwell 5-paceism, Coe 4-zoneism, Canova intensity zones, Cabral system, etc etc etc. Certain scientific theories will be advanced in the future, and others will fall by the wayside. If there ever comes a time when we finally have THE ANSWER, running will cease to thrive, and this thread will certainly lose it's raison d'etre.

        Often, certain things that the greats did become folklore, and are completely blown out of proportion. Coe did not do 6x800m in 1:50, ending with 1:46 100x in his life. All experienced runners remember their very few and far between ultra-special sessions. But this is never the norm, and in fact, this ultra-specialness might constitute overtraining in an intensity sense.

        Science is a tool. What we are left with is individualism, and here is where the art of training and coaching plays it's major role. Do you as a coach know your athlete? Do you as an athlete know yourself? This is the major challenge, much more so than 102% VO2 max on a 1500m interval on a particular session in a 9-day microcycle etc etc etc. Science is the canvas. The runner is the paint.

        Sorry for the philosophizing, but this is my second post here, and I must start with a broad statement of principle!!! :)

        Cheers.
        GILT
    • Glen
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to GILT
      • Glen
      • From the Coe book Better Running for Distance Runners, Page 376 it says for Mon 23 Jul 1984 - just before Olympic Gold

        Start of hard easy sessions, 6x800m hard @2:00 pace with 2 min recovery.

        I have heard from others that Seb once ran 6x800 on the road off 3 minutes all under 1:50. Perhaps we should ask him or his father!!
    • na
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Glen
      • na
      • Him and his father seem to come up with some new manner of training that Coe did every week.

        Supposedly, they said he never did more than 7 miles in training.

        Then, it is reported he broke Ian Stewart's 45:13 10 mile WR training in 45:00. Yeah, right.
    • GILT
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to na
      • GILT
      • My understanding is that regular 6x800m with short recovery was a big piece of the Coe training puzzle. Often the recovery was 90sec, but sometimes 2min, sometimes as low as 45sec. Often the runs averaged close to 2min. This might be "3000m pace" for Coe? Sure, he never ran 7:30, but he had that potential.

        I think the Coes treated these sessions like Marathoners treat long runs. These were the golden endurance sessions.

        Regular 10 Milers were also important. Maybe 4:30 pace was reached on occasion, towards the end, but certainly not at the start, or even the middle. 4:30 for Coe was Mile pace + about 40sec, and I think for most of us, this represents "very brisk tempo".

        Someone who always amazed me in his training was Moorcroft. Amongst all of the essential aerobic runs, he seemed to be a big fan of intense intervals with long recovery. Typically, 5x1000m with 7min rests, at sub 2:30 pace. Or 300m runs with 3min rests at sub 40sec. I wonder if, in addition to finding success with such methods, he simply hated short recovery stuff? Personally, I look forward to long recovery sessions, and shy away from short recovery. Maybe that's a mental weakness, but, quite possibly, it's an individual desire that must be recognized and embraced.

        Cheers
        GILT
    • tach44444
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to GILT
      • tach44444
      • to me, short recovery is very important especially early in speed work training. If your PR is 4:20 in the mile, y run 8 x 400's in 62 with 2:00 minutes rest wen ur race pace is 65? your training your body to go faster than it can handle. instead, do 8 x 400 in 65 or 64 with maybe 2:00 or 90 seconds recovery. makes sense, right?
    • GILT
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to tach44444
      • GILT
      • Some would argue (Moorcroft?) that 400s in low 60s with plenty of recovery will create a situation whereby 65s (4:20 Mile pace) feel easy. ie Supercompensation via faster than race pace training.

        Or 3x800m in 2:08, with lots of recovery. Tough session for a 4:20 Miler, but perhaps an important option for improving towards 4:16.

        Of course, this is just one piece of a large puzzle.

        Cheers
        GILT
    • running222
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to trackhead
      • running222
      • Lebid is a very talented runner that can race at all three cross,track ,and road. If he needs a new coach it must be a serious issue.
    • madein_82
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to yeah
      • madein_82
      • yeah wrote:
        When did Lebid drop Renato? If so, Lebid is a very stupid person.

        I remember Renato saying he was uncoachable and when Renato told him he should not do indoor, he refused and did his own training. Lebid is stupid to have done so, and it is no wonder he cannot medal at any Championships.
        Yeah Lebid doesnt what hes doing.

        ....he just happens to be best non-african XC runner in world.
    • uh, no
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to tach44444
      • uh, no
      • tach44444 wrote:
        to me, short recovery is very important especially early in speed work training. If your PR is 4:20 in the mile, y run 8 x 400's in 62 with 2:00 minutes rest wen ur race pace is 65? your training your body to go faster than it can handle. instead, do 8 x 400 in 65 or 64 with maybe 2:00 or 90 seconds recovery. makes sense, right?
        2 things:

        1. Please do not use "AOL Speak." The word "why" is not rendered "y" and "your" is not "ur."

        2. 8 x 400 in 62 w/ 2:00 vs. 8 x 400 in 65 w/ 2:00? You are better if you can do the first.
    • yeah
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to madein_82
      • yeah
      • madein_82 wrote:
        Yeah Lebid doesnt what hes doing.

        ....he just happens to be best non-african XC runner in world.


        Correct, he doesn't know what he is doing.

        Renato does. That's why he is the best non-African; because Renato knows what he needs to improve.

        You are an idiot.

        In the future, observe the following 3 guidelines in order:

        1. Read what you are replying to.

        2. Think.

        3. Reply only if you have something valuable to say.

        You failed to do all 3.
    • madein_82
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to yeah
      • madein_82
      • how about this.

        i dont know who you are nore do i care.

        Also,

        the only thing i KNOW about, Renato and Lebid, is that Renato doesnt coach him anymore.

        and he is SO uncoachable, he still seems to be doing just fine.

        Ill admit, i dont know shit about what it takes at this level , coaching, or running.

        But i do know that Lebid PROBABLY DOES know what it takes.


        and NOBODY on this board is in any position to question his actions.
    • yeah
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to madein_82
      • yeah
      • madein_82 wrote:
        and NOBODY on this board is in any position to question his actions.
        This is a discussion board. We discuss running. Everyone is in a position to question why a top athlete leaves the person who helped hom become a top athlete.

        None of this alters the fact that you are an idiot.
    • madein_82
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to yeah
      • madein_82
      • well since Lebid was called an Idiot by someone on this board.

        i find myself in good company.


        also i would point at that pseudo-scientific B.S.

        doesnt mean your smart.
    • yeah
      • RE: lebid 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to madein_82
      • yeah
      • madein_82 wrote:
        well since Lebid was called an Idiot by someone on this board.

        i find myself in good company.
        If you follow the lead of someone who turned his back on the person who brought him success, you are in poor company.


        also i would point at that pseudo-scientific B.S.

        doesnt mean your smart.
        Do you mean that knowing about the type of training that produces top athletes does not entail intelligence in this area? Better tell Renato, JK, Antonio, Tinman, Joe Rubio, and Hadd, all of whose athletes are running fast.
    • wineturtle
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Good Grief
      • wineturtle
      • Good Grief wrote:
        Is this thread ever going to end? Good stuff from Senor Canova but >1000 posts?
        Can you say sixteen hundred Good Grief! Charlie Brown will never really kick the ball cause he's in reruns just like this 1601th post
    • yowsa
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to wineturtle
      • yowsa
      • wineturtle wrote:
        Can you say sixteen hundred Good Grief! Charlie Brown will never really kick the ball cause he's in reruns just like this 1601th post
        What's your point?

        If you don't like it, leave, and stop wasting the damn space remarking about how amazing it is that there are x number of posts.

        You are complaining about the number, then adding to it.

        Say nothing, and don't read it if you don't care.
    • Antonio Cabral
      • RE: Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold? 8/2/2005 6:01PM - in reply to Antonio Cabral
      • Antonio Cabral
      • Since i´ve been some time out of post in this monster thread, but from time to time people posts naming me, and they ask me questions, or simply make some comments about me, and since that people ask me a kind of “collective questions”, in this style like this one:

        Post by Marco Velediaz, with his e-mail adress
        4/4/2005 11:01AM
        http://www.letsrun.com/forum/f...38&page=76

        …A question for Renato Canova, Antonio Cabral, Tinmann and the distance gurus on this board:

        Then, WHEN is the proper TIMING to move up to the distance events (5000 and 10,000 m) for an athlete with a progression like this…
        Mexican Coach

        I want to profit the occasion to say to you all that when want ask me about any question concerns training advise or anything relate to running and training that you think that I may answer if you send me a personal e-mail I will do. But questions addressed to me (or a group of people) in the posts that are about individual training I don´t.
        But since my e-mail address is in the posts, if you want to ask me a individual training question/ask/advise, you shall do that in a personal e-mail.

        My training ideas and my training philosophy concepts and coach ethic is the one that I answer and reply to everyone with no exception, and I don´t use an hierarchy of answers that if the coach or the runner he is a top coach, I reply this e.mails in the first priority. My relationship and my attitude through the runner or the coach is a personal one a private one, and that means that in the individual advise I need a side-by-side and private relationship. In my opinion this kind of answers for a single case that may not be in the public domain – that´s simply my individual training opinion to THAT individual. Then those who want ask me some individual question advise, simply ask me directly and in privacy for my e-mail. I will try my best for free, but in privacy, I don´t want to do do personal direct advise publicly in what I consider a private issue that one of individual coaching, after all a direct relation in between 2 individuals.

        Then if you want my personal advise in an serious individual running subject, send me a personal e-mail, but don´t post that.