| Old Runner |
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Thanks in advance for any help. I have a friend who ran his current PR in the mile last year as a HS Sophomore. His time: 4:24. This year he seems to be struggling a little. We look for small improvements each year but so far he has managed a 4:26 but is usually around 4:30+/-. His 800 time is right at 2 flat. And his 400 time is 54.5. So I think he has the speed to run about 4:20 or so. Anyway, I've noticed that the repeat training is almost always 400s and 200s with a rare 600 or 800 thrown in. Mileage is about 40 per week if you count the shag jog between intervals. Most of the target times for all runs are based on Daniels formula. My question is this: for milers, shouldn't there be more intervals at 1000meters and 1200 meters? Is that too aggressive? I don't know much about this kind of training and was wondering what sort of training SHOULD be considered to bring his mile time more to where I perceive his ability indicates. Oh, and he is a hard worker...he doesn't slack on time between intervals nor does he cut out of his distance runs. Any ideas???...thx |
| wiefranz |
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Most probably increasing weekly mileage with easy and tempo runs. |
| Old Runner |
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Thanks, others? |
| MS3 Runner |
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This is an old rule of thumb, but it seems to work pretty damn well: 1. Taking your best 400m, multiply by two. 2. If your 800m time is ~4 seconds slower, you need to do more speed-oriented work. If greater than ~6, you need to do more aerobic work. If in between, you're pretty well balanced. Based on the above, I think that your friend needs to put a greater emphasis on his aerobic work. Once upon a time I fell into the trap of doing only short-intervals, thinking what I lacked was speed. When I started doing 1600m intervals and tempos, my mile time magically dropped from 4:24 to 4:13 in the span of a few months. Continuing on the same formula I dropped another 10 seconds over the years. Strength = speed. My short-term recommendations: 1. 12x400m intervals with 60 second (max) rest at 3-4 seconds slower than mile pace. 2. One long (10+ miles) run per week where the pace starts very slow and is ratcheted down each mile. 3. 1600m intervals with 3-3:30 rest in between at 30-35s slower than mile pace. My long-term recommendations: 1. Build up slowly to 60mpw from 40mpw. (This should be easy to do with a weekly long run of 12 miles). Do not drop this mileage until the last month of the outdoor track season. 2. Never go shorter than 8 miles on any distance run. (Unless it's the day before a race). 3. Never stop the weekly long run (no matter what part of the season). 4. Don't do intervals shorter than 800m until the track season starts. (Unless it's the 12x400m workout, which is more of a distance workout anyway). 5. Never "redline" your effort in any workout. You can run hard, but it has to be controlled/comfortable. I hope this helps. There's a lot more but I tried to keep it simple. I wish I had a cursory knowledge of this kind of stuff when I was in high school. |
| Ask whoever |
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Any ideas yes, get a coach bro. Stop asking advice, from guys you don't know. |
| Old Runner |
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Thank You... Hey...Bro...You assume he doesn't have a coach. Most likely you assume that I'm coaching him. You also seem to assume that ANY "Coach" is a good coach. I'm looking at his results, and as a family friend, I'm questioning the results and methods of the current coaching he is receiving. So, to get some understanding, I'm asking for those who have done some Mile training to check whether the current methods are sufficient to get the perceived talent out of my friend. So, Bro, hope that helps your condescending attitude get a handle on the scenario. |
| Rattus americanus |
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Thank You... Hey...Bro...You assume he doesn't have a coach. Most likely you assume that I'm coaching him. You also seem to assume that ANY "Coach" is a good coach. I'm looking at his results, and as a family friend, I'm questioning the results and methods of the current coaching he is receiving. So, to get some understanding, I'm asking for those who have done some Mile training to check whether the current methods are sufficient to get the perceived talent out of my friend. So, Bro, hope that helps your condescending attitude get a handle on the scenario.[/quote] Uh oh, you insulted a message board rat, now that's crossing the line. Prepare to face the consequences because like flies on dung (or rats on cheese) they'll soon be out in full force. (that said, agree with the mileage-tempo running suggestion discussed above) |
| no one |
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mmmm - 40 mpw is a bit sparse. And you think he might have a bit of a 'mental block' vs physical shortfall? On the face of it he has some decent speed and his 800 isn't bad either. guess I'm saying, and prob what you already know is that 4:20 is quite realistic. Season is winding down here so ... I'd be doing some 400s per what has been sad. could mix in some 1k and 1200s in with. I would try to replicate the 'feeling' you get in the 800 ... where you have to really work the last 200 or so - I would also finish up workouts with some speed 100s - prob 6 building to ~ 3/4 to 7/8 effort. I also suspect that he is discouraged and needs someone in his corner with positive input. Is there a meet or a person (runner) he can key off of? ... in races or workouts. I think the challenge here is the approaching end of the season with a workout regimen (quite) a bit more than at present. This does sound like a kid with promise. Summary - increase weekly mileage (doubles if possible) - get good rest - interval work that pushes him (prob more than it is now), and I think it needs to go in both distance directions - short and longer. Tempo stuff or fartlek would be a bad consideration either. You're really stuck with the last minute preparation parameter. In a normal training cycle I would be all for the 1k+ but I'm not sure. I would try some with of those 400s after a bit inervated. Good luck |
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Yes. 1000m repeats and mile repeats. A long run once a week. But now that it is May it is a bit late for that. Next year. Fall work is important. |
| no one |
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also - watching how he's doing in any given workout - and making adjustments is crucial - just because one has a workout plan does not meant that has to be adhered to rigidly. I think this is often mistake by HS level peoples. Further that is (imho)the value of a coach who knows when to shift things around |
| trance dance turn in shawowski |
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Good post MS3. As a high school runner, I had the same issue as the OP's runner with similar times/PRs. For me, 400s and 200s were my bread and butter but ask me to run intervals of 800m+ and the wheels started to come off real quick. I always felt that if my mile was ~4:30, my 800m intervals should be in the 2:15 ballpark but during the workout, 2:30-2:40+ became the range. 1600m intervals @ 5minutes would have crushed me. Moral of story, as MS3 mentions, long rep distances. Good luck. |
| Old Runner |
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Good. Thanks. His coach has him run the rare 800's that he does get to do in 2:21 which seem a bit slow to me. I know they are trying to base it from Vdot and all, but I think he should be training at a higher stress than he is at current. I dont want to see him burn out, but Im concerned that he wont get better (even if it is only 3seconds) without a more taxing workout schedule. The end of the season is the killer. fortunately he has a senior year to work with still and a good cross country season may be what he needs to set up for Track next year. Thanks for the input |
| Old Runner |
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MS3, Is the "3-4 seconds slower that mile pace" the target mile pace (lets say 4:20/ mile so, 400's at 68-69)? or should they be based on his current PR for the Mile pace? of course the same would be true of the 1600m intervals also? Thanks BTW...My intent is to discuss this with his father and suggest he take an active role in encouraging his kid (dad is very supportive) to work with the coach to get a better approach to the training he is doing. I dont expect at this point there is much he can do for this season. He may only have about 2 weeks left at best. |
| MS3 Runner |
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Firstly, 6-8x800m repeats should be done a little slower than 2-mile pace with maximum 2 minute recovery in between, so 2:20 is probably too fast (not too slow) for your friend. (If he could run 9:20, then his 800 repeats should be 2:21-23). Secondly, the target pace in a workout should always be based on current (not intended) fitness. The key is to go by effort, not by time. If you get in better shape, then the same effort will translate to a faster time. The reason the repeats are 3-4 seconds slower than mile pace is because they are supposed to be comfortable, but still moderately difficult. When I first broke 4:10 in the mile, my 400 repeats were kept at about 65s with 1-minute rest. When I first broke 4:20, my repeats were around 67-68. What I always did was keep meticulous track of my workouts and compare my progress every few weeks. As I got in better shape my interval times would drop a little. Lastly, and most importantly, the goal of training isn't to see how hard you can run in workouts. Rather, it's to see how fast you can go in workouts while staying comfortable and relaxed. Hope this helps.
MS3, Is the "3-4 seconds slower that mile pace" the target mile pace (lets say 4:20/ mile so, 400's at 68-69)? or should they be based on his current PR for the Mile pace? of course the same would be true of the 1600m intervals also? Thanks BTW...My intent is to discuss this with his father and suggest he take an active role in encouraging his kid (dad is very supportive) to work with the coach to get a better approach to the training he is doing. I dont expect at this point there is much he can do for this season. He may only have about 2 weeks left at best.[/quote] |