| Pages: | 1 | 2 | |
| midwesterner coach |
| ||
|
I'm a relatively new coach. I know the basics, and maybe even a little beyond that. I'm a USATF level 1 certified coach, and I ran at the national level myself in my "glory days". I've coached some decent milers, xc runners and mid-dist kids (4:25, 48, 1:57 and upper 15 min 5kers), but I sometimes wonder what's missing from my training regimen because I've rarely seen my athletes blaze a final 200 in the mile. When watching my kids, I sometimes dread their final lap because more often than not, they seem to fade. It kills me, and I know they don't like it either - these are competitive kids that hate losing, so I know it's not due to "mental weakness". I think it's my fault. They run about 50 miles a week on average. Slightly more at the start of the season and slightly less at the end. Pretty typical I think. I have 2 "track sessions" a week with plenty of speed. I have them run a "tempo" paced 3 to 6 mile run once every 2 weeks. It's nothing ground-breaking, and I know it shouldn't be. So what the hell am I missing? Do they need more rest? I don't give them many days off because I figure an easy 30-45 mins once or twice a week should let their legs recover. Ideas please? |
| no one |
| ||
|
what did you do 'in the day' |
| midwesterner coach |
| ||
|
It's not important what I did. Can you offer something worth value? |
| dsrunner has the day off |
| ||
|
level 1: most of that stuff is eons past expiration date. blazing kick is a function of stamina (resistance to fatigue) and speed. For example, if you are incapable of running a 400m in 52 seconds, you will not kick a 400m in 52 seconds. name the best current US runners with blazing kicks: I name Lagat, Manzano, Lomong, Wheating and Torrence. Notice that these runners are the same runners who would be favored in a 1500 or mile with pacesetters. As you continue in coaching, you will find the best way to develop the kick in the miler is to develop the miler. |
| Stay away from my kids. |
| ||
Yes it is bro. We don't need guys, that can't f***ing coach. |
| peer review |
| ||
How on earth could you possibly believe that an apostrophe is needed in the middle of that sentence? |
| Guppy |
| ||
How on earth could you possibly believe that an apostrophe is needed in the middle of that sentence?[/quote] apostrophe? lol |
| weiner dog |
| ||
|
I think that might be a comma... |
| Guppy |
| ||
|
Most coaches and athletes I know completely ignore neuromuscular training, aka alactic sprinting. I cringe every time I hear someone say they're going to work on their speed by doing 400m reps. 400m reps are not speed work. If you want to improve max speed, you need to run near max speed. Since this is obviously anaerobic, and since it doesn't make sense to blast a bunch of 200m reps most of the year if you're a distance guy, you want to try to spend time running fast without producing or building up a lot of lactate. The best way to do this is through short sprints with long recoveries, something like 60-100m reps with >90s recovery. This way, energy is produced mostly through the creatine-phosphate system, and the little lactate that is produced is fully cleared during the long rest period. These are essentially focused strides. The tendency is for athletes and coaches to try and make the workout difficult, which is exactly what you DON'T want to do. A typical workout like this would be something like 12-16x100m (starting out at mile pace for the first few reps and working down to 400m pace) with 90s rest between reps, 3:00 after every four. Good form should be a big focus throughout the workout as well. A full day allotted to this type of training doesn't need to be done very often. If you have time you can do this sort of this sort of thing after workouts twice a week, but runners usually don't run a fast on the reps under these circumstances. The year I worked on my speed by doing frequent strides and one of these workouts every 2-3 weeks I lowered my 800m time from 2:00 to 1:56 (I was in high school) and was able to kick home in 59.x in the mile, even off of a somewhat fast pace, which is good enough to win most high school races unless you're running <4:10. There's a good chapter on this in Run Strong. |
| jerrry |
| ||
|
well i'm not sure i should give away my secret, but so few people ever listen that i'm not too worried anymore. i am one of those people who could kick a final 200 or 400 faster than i could run an open one. I know that contradicts reason, but it is true and there is a reason for it - i practiced kicking (very few runners actaully do this). I think you develop a kick by developing speed as Guppy just said (and i needed but did not do his method = which is way my open 200/400 was slower than my kick) - but another way it to actually practice kicking. How? what i liked to do as a very young runners was kick at the end of my steady runs (even easy days) - if i were running 3-6 miles at whatever pace i would almost always bring it home strong. This does 2 things: 1) it creates the mental side of kicking - kind of like that horse racing movie "seabiscut" where you learn to kick by some type of promt - the sound of the bell etc. For me, the kick became such an automatic response that i almost had no control over it - it happened, when it happened. i once kicked in a high school 2 mile race for the last 800 not because i planned to but because that's when the leaders let me take the lead - once i went i realized i went too soon, but you can't unring a bell and i was off and they never caught me. So you have to psychological develop a kick (first): By thinking about it - practicing it and then developing it. 2) how do you develop it (the pyhsical side)...by doing it...for me i might kick the last 100 m one day (i lived in the country so that might be 4 telephone poles) the next time i try 5 and so on. Each time leads to more confidence that i can go earlier and earlier and the body adapts to it. not every runner will develop a blazing kick - that is why racing stategy comes into play - a slow twitch runner quickly learns that to win they have to get the lead in the middle of the race and widen it to take the kickers out of range. The kickers know if they can stay close, they win...so the real race happens in the middle - long befoe the bell lap unless there are equally matched kickers in a race. practicing kicking on intervals days is a little trickier. if you are going to try this, i would recommend breaking the distance runners into groups of 2 with equally matched kickers - so you are not developing kicking confindence in one runner while destroying it in another. Kicking at the end of intervals is still somewhat tricky...you don't want them overdoing it since the intervals themselves are tough enough and sometime the goal is not to see how fast you can finish but how well you can hold the pace. i would not want them kicking every interval either...only a few pre-selected ones. unless i had them intentionally holding back for part of the interval. finally i would say it will not happen overnight...most of your runners without kicks now will not suddenly have one by the end of this season (unless they are just going out too hard - and need to learn to control their pace early on). |
| Guppy |
| ||
|
I somewhat agree with jerrry. I also like to run the last rep of my interval workouts fast, with most of the fast bit in the last 200-400m depending on the length of the rep. Though one cannot sprint fast at the end of a race if they cannot sprint fast while fresh (which is why speed should be worked on as described in my first post), it can be important to practice running fast when already tired. Given this advice some runners might get the misconception they need to race the last rep of every workout. This is not a good idea. For an example of what I'm talking about, I would say if you're doing 1200m reps in 3:30, on your last one go 70, 70, 34, 31, something like that. Again, the emphasis should be on running fast yet still under control and with good form. One can then add some 100m reps after the workout if desired. The mental side of kicking was never a factor for me, so I just work on being physically able to kick as I know I'm mentally able, but I know several runners who always dog in their last 100-200m, and for them it could be important. |
| PIGEON |
| ||
|
hill work, short sprints, plyos, and weights did it for me. If you think thats too much then just start with hills. In my opinion long hills help the finishing kick better. Short hills with minimal lactic buildup is mostly for developing speed. |
| midwesterner coach |
| ||
----------------------- Thanks, that's good info. I do some creatine phosphate work with them, especially early in the season. However, I guess I kind of trail off on that as the season progresses. In fact, I actually thought that creatine phosphate energy was only useful as early speed and unavailable late in the race. As far as the neuromuscular training goes, we do a lot of drills, and at the end of practice 3 times a week we do extended sets of "knee-ups" (fast high knees standing in place) that I thought fulfilled that....maybe it isn't enough. I will look into this further. Thanks for the suggestion. And to the guy that called me "bro": You're an idiot. Pay attention next time you attend your sub 100 level remedial English course. |
| Robeto+++ |
| ||
|
You're an idiot bro. Why pay attention, to a bad coach? |
| kw |
| ||
|
Far and away the best advice on here along with the note about finishing speed also being a function of stamina etc. Good stuff, men.
|
| bangalangadanga |
| ||
|
its all about how you get to 1400 meters, and not what you do after 1400 meters that goes into the 'blazing' speed. |
| Azaleas |
| ||
|
Short hill sprints are the easiest way. You can do them without making it a focused workout, and they shouldn't be at all tiring. I like to do them at the end of morning runs once or twice a week; just 6 to 10 8-12 second sprints. |
| Ya Ya Ya |
| ||
|
I have had good success in developing a good kick by tacking on 'finishing speed' sessions at the end of what I call tempo runs. (2 to 4 mile runs at 5K pace + 25 sec per mile) I do all my tempo runs on the track. I feel that this really helps to mentally and physically prepare a middle distance runner to be able to have another gear when they are tired. After the tempo session, walk one lap in about 5+ minutes. Then run the 'finishing speed' session. Early on in the training cycle, the 'finishing speed' session is 5 x 200m with a slow walk back to the start. The target pace for the 200's is 1 or 2 seconds slower than current 400m race pace. As the weeks in the training cycle get to the middle of the cycle, the 'finishing speed' session changes to 5 x 150m at current 400m race pace. Then in the final weeks of the training cycle, the 'finishing speed' session becomes 5 x 100m at faster than current 400m race pace. (I use a rolling start on these). |
| bangalangadanga |
| ||
|
I like what jerry had to say about practicing kicking. Here is an example of something I would try with a 4:25 miler. 3 x 1 mile w/ 5 minutes rest. 1:20, 1:20, 1:20, 60 rinse and repeat. Also, try switching a track day with an extra tempo day. I will endorse what Jerry said by stating that I recently developed the ability to kick in 5ks rather than fade by actually kicking in practice the last 800 m of a 4 - 6 mile tempo. It really does become an automatic thing. |
| cripes |
| ||
And I cringe every time someone refers to speed work as 'neuromuscular training' Guppy, all training is neuromuscular. All movement is neuromuscular. |
| Pages: | 1 | 2 | |