| Gentler |
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I have some specific questions on EVA's training: 1. How close to a marathon should I incorporate tempo runs and repeats, assuming I've developed my base? 2. At 60 miles per week, should I stick to the 1:20 ratio for tempo/overall miles? That would be only 3 miles of hard running per week. 3. For long runs(18-24 miles); how many, how often and how close to the race should those begin? Thanks |
| HRE |
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It's hard to give specific answers because there wasn't just one approach to marathons that van Aaken used. I wrote an article about EvA for "Marathon & Beyond" a few years ago and I'll dig around into some of my old materials to see what I can find. If you're lucky, a guy who very occasionally posts here as "vladmir" and who trained with EvA will see your thread and answer. But I'll give you a bit right now. Liane Winter trained for her world best at Boston in 1975, I think that was the year, by alternating 30km runs on one day with 20km runs the day after. She'd break the "30" into 10km sets doing one easy, one moderate, and one fast, I'm guessing race pace for the "fast" bit. The 20km was an easy run. There were no intervals described in that mix, and the 20:1 ratio was always in reference to interval work so it wouldn't apply. On the other hand, Christa Vahlensiek, coached by Mafred Steffney who was coached by van Aaken, did sessions like 5x1000 weekly (or so.) I don't recall seeing much along the lines of "tempo" runs in her training but I'd have to find it again to be sure. I recall vladmir saying that they used to have a weekend shortly before their marathons where they would run the entire distance at race pace but in smaller segments and spread out over four runs. For example, on Saturday, someone hoping to run 6:00 pace for his marathon might do 10 x mile at 6:00 in one run. Later on Saturday he might do 20 x 400 in 90. Then on Sunday he might do 3 x 5,000 at 18: 40ish in one run and finish up with 16 x 200 at 45. I think that all adds up to 26 miles. If it doesn't, you get the idea. As with so many of these models, you're better off figuring out the principles and ideas behind the sessions and then adapting them to your circumstances. I will dig around a bit later in the day and see if I can find more for you. |
| EVA fan |
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http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4530955 In today's BOSTON GLOBE: Self- Coached Geoffrey Mutai a training week: Monday A.M. 2 HR easy run (6:30-8 min./mile) P.M. 1 HR. easy run (6:30-8 min./mile) Tuesday A.M. 50 min. run (8 min. miles) P.M. Speed Workout: 30 min. warm-up 12x1km intervals (4:50/mile pace) w 1 min. rec. Wednesday: A.M. 1Hr 50min. run (8min. miles) P.M. 2 HR easy run (8min. miles) Thursday: A.M. 25 mile run (7:15 min. miles speeding up to 5:35 min. miles) Friday: A.M. 1Hr 50min. run (8min. miles) P.M. 2 HR easy run (8min. miles) Saturday: A.M. Speed Workout: 30 min. warm-up 20x2min. intervals @ 5 min. mile with 1 min. rec. 30 min. cooldown 1. Mutai is EVA marathon training really, version of a world class runner 2. With 12x1km intervals (4:50/mile pace) w 1 min. rec. and 20x2min. intervals @ 5 min. mile with 1 min. rec. Mutai does low percent of total mileage at race pace 3. Tempo runs as well as long runs might be done often, weekly frequency. |
| Gentler |
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EVA fan, Are the faster portions of the 25 mile run considered the Tempo run for the week or does Mutai do continuous tempos in place of the 12x1K sessions? How far out from race day would you recommend I add the repeats, tempos and long runs? I'm a 53 y/o, 3 hour marathoner with a couple dozen marathons completed. I'd like to try a schedule based on this philosophy because my favorite Jack Daniels workouts that are simultaneously long and fast are now breaking me down. |
| EVA fan |
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Van Aaken did not trust the kind of season periodisation which different training on different season periods is done. Van Aaken sees the training progress mainly by the repeat and sustain the same training pattern week by week, on and on. What changes is the speed you do the workouts relate to your actual shape condition. It means that you might do repeats, long tempos or long run often and ever. |
| HRE |
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Here's a post of "valdmir's" about EvA marathon training: Without digging up my old training logs I would have to say that we seldom did scheduled tempo runs. However we always ended the sessions with a pickup. In the weeks leading up to an important race we would do some pace work. Nothing outragous (usually something like 5 x 5k @MP- 3:00 walk between). For the longer races we seemed to never do the entire total distance at a tempo pace), but usually between 1/2- 3/4. This was done more to know the race pace. He seemed worried about going out too fast and dying more than going out too slow and falling behind your scheduled time. We also always had a window we were shooting at- for example I started out shooting for 2:20 - knowing that if things went well I would hit 2:18 and poorly 2:22. Then our pace would be set at 2:20 where we were supposed to stay for at least the first 2/3 before trying to increase the pace. Yes this will never allow for some great one race improvement, but it never resulted in a total wash out. Hope this helps. |
| Gentler |
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It certainly does help. I have also been considering throwing the watch away and simply running by feel to avoid the temptation to hit a pace on tempo/repeat workouts. 6x1000 @ marathon 'effort' is still done at current marathon effort whether you know your exact pace or not. It's tough to avoid pushing oneself to the pace that one expects to be able hold at that point in the training. |
| Gentler |
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I read the entire 19 page thread today. Since the high volume(15 hrs or more per week) at slow pace is the key to this strategy, I have to ask if it has any applicability to someone running half as much in preparation for a marathon. Will a runner averaging 60 mpw ever become that aerobic beast who can benefit from running only 5% of his volume at tempo/race pace? |
| Erknee |
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Bump |
| v kuts |
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Yes, that may be true, but EVA was never concerned with results, but rather than with development of the individual. Not everyone has the opportunity to train at the levels EVA suggested, but the concept remains the same. Perhaps if this individual now trains within these concepts and runs 100k a week he will continue to add distance on a regular basis and at some point reach a higher level. Sorry for my slowness in my getting involved, but I was unable to get remember my password. |
| Link |
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Vladimir and HRE can give you much more specific Van Aaken advice than I, but I thought I'd chime in anyway, as reading Van Aaken's book changed my training and led to big improvements. My advice for you is this: Figure out how much you time you can run per week. Be bold. Most people have more time than they think they do. I would imagine that you can find at least 10 hours/ week. Regardless, though, get a hrm and train at the Van Aaken recommended range of 120-130 (or so... maybe 60% of heart rate reserve, just some relatively low bounds). And keep it there for 95% of your time. The first few weeks, you might cover just 10km in an hour at that heart rate. Eventually, though, you will start to improve. In that same time you will cover 11 then 12 and so on. Now the more you run, the faster you will improve, but you will improve (modulo weather and fatigue etc. the overall trend will be good, though). Thus your mileage will improve but you won't be spending any more time. The other 5% run at around say 160 in long repeats or one long run or enter a race and keep it at that heart rate. Every once in a while throw in some fast 50 m controlled sprints. Do this for a year. If you do, you're going to set some PRs. |
| HRE |
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Remember the Law of Diminishing Returns. Your first miles provide the greatest increase in fitness. Higher miles make you more fit but the increments of improvement level off. Consistency over a long period of time will result in better fitness. Van Aaken himself ran 3:17 in his forties or fifties, I forget which, and his son told me that he and his dad ran 10 km every night after work. |
| Gentler |
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I've been at it off and on, due to injuries, over the 10 years with about 20 marathons completed and a PR of 2:57 at age 48, 5 years ago. I like the EVA emphasis as I am trying to find a way forward with less risk of injury. I've liked and benefited from the Daniels workouts where a long run contains a lot of tempo and marathon pace but I'm thinking of the long haul, now. |
| The deal is |
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You may also want to take a look at Phil Maffetone's new book. The training approach is quite similar to EVA, but extends to diet and overall health. http://www.amazon.com/The-Book-Endurance-Training-Racing/dp/1616080655/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334842995&sr=1-1 |
| HRE |
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One of the better US runners in his late 40s is Francis Burdett. He doesn't race marathons, he's 1500-10,000 kind of guy but he does ALL of his training at around 9:00 pace and NOTHING else. He does this to stay healthy. Two quotes of his come to mind: "I run slowly today so that I'm able to run slowly tomorrow" and "You don't need to train fast to race fast. You need to train fast to race your fastest." Very few guys who are even a decade younger than Burdett would turn their noses up at running his sorts of times. You can go a lot further with gentle running than many people believe, but you likely can't go all the way. But, if you can't run much at all because you've hammered yourself into illness or injury you can't get all the way either. Van Aaken was always more concerned with health for the masses than he was with performance for the few. But he showed the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. |
| kudzurunner |
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@HRE: I've raced well into my 50s doing quite a lot of my running at easy/recovery pace, and there's no question that's one key to staying healthy and developoing a strong aerobic engine. I do a two-hour run on most Sundays, in season or out. Still, there's a place in my schedule, too, for other kinds of running as I get ready to run races. When I start adding hills--in my case, a 4:00 hill run at tempo-to-10K intensity--my legs are sore, as much from the downhills as the uphills, but after a week or two the soreness goes away, and I then start recovering more quickly from other sorts of harder training. Muscular training! Again, when I begin to phase in faster running, which takes the form of aerobic fartlek of 8-10 x .13 mile on, .13 off, with the "on" sections at half-marathon to 10K pace, I have to be careful: my hamstrings can revolt. And my legs feel slow. Still, strides or what I might call extended strides up to 35-50 seconds are really important as you age. As long as you keep some faster stuff like this in the mix--aerobic, not hard repeats--you can keep your legs fresh. AND, importantly, they can help you remain injury free. Finally, I find it impossible to race decently at the 5K-10K distance without doing something like repeat 800s or miles. I don't need a lot of them, maybe three or four 800s, two or three repeat miles, but without them, I find during the races that I just don't want to push as far into the red zone as a good race demands. I'm an experienced racer and enjoy the pain! But I need to be reminded of the pain, and get used to it, during the workouts, at least a couple of them, before I'm ready to commit to exploring that pain a little more deeply in the races. I bought Van Aaken's little yellow-covered book many years ago and it inspired me then and still inspires me. I learned the slow-down-and-grow lesson a long time ago. Tom Tinman Schwartz's training philosophy, which shares some of Van Aaken's approach, also diverges from it--or at least from the all-slow reduction of it--and helped me run masters PRs at the half marathon and 10 mile distance at age 50. His "big workout" regime led me to run half of my weekly mileage at plus/minus 5% of race pace in the 7-14 period before my goal race. I did a range of 2 x 3 mile and 3 x 2 mile progressive tempos, a regular/hard tempo run, and several fast finish long runs. I've never been in better shape. And I ran nothing faster than 5K pace--except, of course, for some strides. None of that would have been possible without the months of slower VanAaken style mileage behind me. But the PRs wouldn't have been possible without all that race-pace stuff. Bottom line: I try to avoid fundamentalisms of any sort, including "all slow stuff." |