hgwells
What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 10:51PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'm an assistant coach for a XC and Track and Field team this year and one kid in particular has piqued my attention. He started the XC season as number 2 varsity (quite slower than number 1, but he was only a first year guy). This was before any races, on 5 mile runs he would come back right after our fast guy, and likewise, in repeats he would finish with the rest of the fast guys (He said he ran 600 miles over the summer and got a strong aerobic base). Less than a week into our training, though, he started getting beaten by some guys who he had beaten the day before. By our first race he was the #10 on the team, and by the last he was #17. At first, I was sure he overtrained, as he still went hard on the "easy" days, but after putting in 600 miles between XC and track he was still slower than the guys who he had been capable of beating months before.

This kid is the nicest guy in the world, a great team player, and he tries just as hard as the rest of varsity. I've been watching him for some time now and seriously can't figure out what his problem is. He talked to me last week about this and I hate not being able to give him a straight answer.

Coaches, have you ever had runners fade like crazy like this? Why did it happen? Thanks.
Westside
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 10:54PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
iron
hgwells
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 10:59PM - in reply to Westside Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
OK, I have definitely considered this, but have not had much experience with iron anemia, though one of my teammates in college had anemia and slowed down quite a bit. The kid has commented that he seems to be aerobically stressed earlier in his long runs. What are some symptoms of iron anemia and what should I tell him to do about it?
Guppy
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:07PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Almost certainly not anemia. That comes on slowly and is pretty uncommon in guys. If it happened a week into YOUR training, the answer should be obvious: it's something with YOUR training. I'm not saying your training is bad, but maybe the kid pushed it too hard in workouts or just do well off of whatever you guys do. Get him back doing what he was doing before he joined the program (after some recovery time). He should be fine.
hgwells
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:16PM - in reply to Guppy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
How long does anemia typically take to develop? His slowdown was very much gradual, I'm not sure the scale you're talking about here. Everyday he got a bit slower, not by much, but by the end of season the gradual slowdown got to be pretty significant.

Still pretty confused here, but I am leaning towards some form of anemia, or perhaps just a slight lack of iron, any more advice would be awesome.
Westside
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:26PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
In my years of experience at the college level, men can become anemic very often. Harder aerobic runs, threshold workouts, and races is where anemia usually shows itself the most. Athletes struggle feeling sluggish, have dead legs, and feel "burned out."

Ferritin levels are one of the first things I have checked with an athlete's performance dwindles both rapidly and gradually over time. He is probably feeling the effects of overtraining and anemia.
kang6789
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:30PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
anemia
Junk Master
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:31PM - in reply to Westside Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What is his physical build like?

I'd guess he's shorter and would respond better to more quality work, speed work.

Keep us posted, intriguing.
idiot person
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:37PM - in reply to Junk Master Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Junk Master wrote:

What is his physical build like?

I'd guess he's shorter and would respond better to more quality work, speed work.

Keep us posted, intriguing.


Dumbest post of the day?
hgwells
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/12/2012 11:38PM - in reply to Junk Master Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks for all the feedback. If I were to guess, I'd say he's about 5'9? Estimating of course, he's a little shorter than average but has grown quite a lot throughout the years, which leads me to wonder whether his development has anything to do with it. His first year doing track our main coach dude said he ran 6:00 and was shocked when he saw him blasting it at workouts. Made it all the more painful for him and me to watch him fade like that.
Nah nah
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/13/2012 12:36AM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sounds like overtraining. How fast are his practice runs? During season, they should be 7:30-8:30 per mile.
hgwells
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/14/2012 3:07PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Update:

I told him to get tested yesterday at practice and he just sent me some results. His hemoglobin and hematocrit tests are borderline to anemia, besides that though, I wasn't too sure on what his results meant.

He has a hematocrit level of 39 something or other (Average range is 36-50), can't remember his hemoglobin but I will call him up and ask.
Seen it all before
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/14/2012 3:28PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'd take some down time. Soma kids are head cases. Or maybe you have a workout hero? Plus others were getting into shape while he was already there. Some kids work hard in the offseason and peak for the first meet of the year. Then pretty much stay the same.

You can't compare kids, how are his times? Slower? Same? Faster but just not as much improvement?

Best of luck with this one.
ttgbfdvhun
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/14/2012 3:49PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Sounds like iron anemia. The above posters are wrong, it is not that rare in men. Here is a primer on the issue

http://runningwritings.blogspot.com/2011/11/ferritin-hemoglobin-and-iron-deficiency.html

You need to get this kid's hemoglobin a and ferritin checked pronto.
dumb
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/14/2012 4:42PM - in reply to ttgbfdvhun Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ttgbfdvhun wrote:

Sounds like iron anemia. The above posters are wrong, it is not that rare in men. Here is a primer on the issue

http://runningwritings.blogspot.com/2011/11/ferritin-hemoglobin-and-iron-deficiency.html

You need to get this kid's hemoglobin a and ferritin checked pronto.


Not anemic for a trained endurance athlete judging by those numbers.

OP if I am hearing the story correctly he basically had one really good week of practice and then fizzled out? Sounds like a practice hero.
Nah nah
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/14/2012 5:10PM - in reply to dumb Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

dumb wrote:

[quote]ttgbfdvhun wrote:

Sounds like iron anemia. The above posters are wrong, it is not that rare in men. Here is a primer on the issue

http://runningwritings.blogspot.com/2011/11/ferritin-hemoglobin-and-iron-deficiency.html

You need to get this kid's hemoglobin a and ferritin checked pronto.


Not anemic for a trained endurance athlete judging by those numbers.

OP if I am hearing the story correctly he basically had one really good week of practice and then fizzled out? Sounds like a practice hero.[/quote]

Yeah, if he wants to run his workouts hard, then he needs to run his regular days very slowly like 7:30-8:30 per mile
SlowFatMaster
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/14/2012 5:15PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
If the bloodwork turns out normal, maybe he is a Kenny Moore type of guy. By that, I mean someone who needs more easy days than most and needs to take the easy days EASY. Here is an excerpt from Kenny's book about Bowerman that shows the power of hard-easy-easy:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=kenny%20moore%20bowerman%20dale%20story&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kennymoore.us%2Fkcmarticles%2FThe%2520Man.pdf&ei=oPWJT_3uA-TH0QH6mIzXBg&usg=AFQjCNG1qiRAvlCd9TQRdacM5Zrdon6tVA
hgwells
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/15/2012 5:21PM - in reply to SlowFatMaster Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Nice read, but I'm not sure I want to start him on a workout plan that seems so counter intuitive.

How about putting him on this for a period of 3 weeks and seeing where it takes him? Thoughts?
juhgyfdeswaxgg
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/15/2012 10:38PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I still say check his ferritin before making any big decisions. If it is below 25, you found your problem
here we go
RE: What is wrong with my runner? 4/18/2012 8:42PM - in reply to hgwells Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
People don't "get beat in training." There are kids who run easy runs incredibly slow on my team and destroy everybody at meets, and there are also kids who run 6:30 per mile on easy runs and struggle to break 18:00 for 5000m. You can't judge ability based on easy run and workout because he could be trying harder than the other runners. If you want to really measure your kids' ability, run a time trial instead of guessing based on who comes back first on an easy run.