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Renato Canova
Coach
Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 7:09AM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
We asked John Capriotti to organise the attempt for the WR on track on 25k and 30k, after I saw the recovery of Moses Mosop after Boston Marathon. The WR was 30 years old, and not too difficult to better. My idea was to bring Abel Kirui, now at the beginning of his specific preparation for defending his title of World Marathon Champion, at the record of 25k, and after to increase the pace with Moses, at the moment faster than Abel in every distance we use.
For those reasons, I prepared a schedule looking at 1:13’40” for 25 km, and 1:28’ for 30 km.
I was interested in two things : to control the level of Moses and Abel in long run at the moment, and to better the records, but not in running at their max speed. This attempt must not be a “finalized” record, but a record coming during a phase of preparation without specific focus. The reason was : if we use sometimes sessions of 30 km fast like the WR on track, why don’t try one time to do this on track in official way, so the athlete becomes owner of one official WR ?
But, during last week before the attempt, Abel had a problem in one foot : during a session with the bike (sometimes we use with the goal to increase the frequency of the action), pedaling barefoot, he burnt the skin of one foot because of the friction with the belt of the pedale, and this provoked a little infection, so his left foot became painful and swollen. Consequentely, he had some problem in running fast for 25 km.
During the race, the fact Joel Kimurer tried to stay with Moses like a competitor, not like somebody for helping the pace, changed the plan. Moses decided to increase the speed for going alone, after realizing that Abel could not stay with Kimurer till 25 km, so there was no more reason to wait, but could run faster than the plan.
He went for two following laps in 63”2 and 65”2, covering the km between 17600 and 18600 in 2’42”, and when was alone put himself at a pace of 2’52” per km in comfortable way.
To try a record on track (75 laps !) is something very, very difficult. While during a road race you can organize good pacers till 30 km and you don’t need too much concentration (this what happened with Haile during his WR in Berlin), on track you can have a little aid only, and you have to go alone for the most part of the race, using the maximum level of concentration for long time. For this reason, an athlete like Haile, collector of WR, never tried the record of 25k and 30k on track (for him very easy to better), because this attempt requests a lot of nervous energies, and is not possible to try too close to an important competition.
What Moses showed was absolutely impressive, and this is the reason because I think possible, in one year time, to try to run a marathon at an even pace of 29’ every 10 km (29’ / 58’ / 1:27’ / 1:56’), giving a final time under 2:02’30” in the marathon.
At the moment, we don’t have any specific training for fast and long endurance, so his time can be considered a “basic” value at the beginning of a preparation. Moses is now stronger than in Boston, because, after a top performance, every athlete can start again from a higher level, if doesn’t spend too much time relaxing, LOSING WHAT ALREADY HE HAD.
He can run a full marathon, still without specific preparation, under 2:05:00 at the moment, without many problems. During the attempt, he could arrive till 35 km adding another 5 km in 14’43”, for a total of 1:41’, so the goal of 4x10 km in 29’ in the race is not very far, already before starting the special period.

Here there are his split for km :
1k : 2’57”6 2’57”6
2k : 5’53” 2’55”4
3k : 8’49”8 2’56”8
4k : 11’44”8 2’55”
5k : 14’40”8 2’56”
6k : 17’34”6 2’53”8
7k : 20’28”4 2’53”8
8k : 23’25”2 2’56”8
9k : 26’21” 2’55”8
10k : 29’19”6 2’58”6
11k : 32’15”2 2’55”6
12k : 35’10”8 2’55”6
13k : 38’06”6 2’55”8
14k : 41’01”8 2’55”2
15k : 43’54”2 2’52”4
16k : 46’46”8 2’52”6
17k : 49’39” 2’52”2
18k : 52’24”4 2’45”4 (with one lap in 63”2)
19k : 55’11”2 2’46”8
20k : 58’02” 2’50”8
21k : 1:00’53”7 2’51”7
22k : 1:03’46”4 2’52”7
23k : 1:06’38”8 2’52”4
24k : 1:09’31”8 2’53”
25k : 1:12’25”2 WR 2’53”4
26k : 1:15’17” 2’51”8
27k : 1:18’12”5 2’55”5
28k : 1:21’07”2 2’54”7
29k : 1:24’00”2 2’53”
30k : 1:26’47”4 WR 2’47”2

For fractions of 5 km :

14’40”8 + 14’38”8 + 14’34”6 + 14’07”8 + 14’23”2 + 14’22”2

For fractions of 10 km :

29’19”6 + 28’42”4 + 28’45”4

For fractions of 15 km :

43’54”2 + 42’53”2
Ragu
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 7:30AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Simply incredible, Renato.

I watched every lap of Mosop's WRs and he was an absolute machine.

Thank you for this great idea in setting up the race. By the way, when will you be back in the USA?
maru
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 7:37AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
thank you mr.canova.

moses mosop post marathon recovery one week.

no Damage boston marathon?(super high speed,down hill,,,)
littleboyblue
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 8:03AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Moprop is the Metronome Man - grinding out 2:50-2:55 kms with few exceptions. Just a good hard workout on the track for him. Remarkable!
Espresso
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 8:19AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Hello Coach Canova does your relationship with Nike, do you consult with Alberto Salazar and his runner G. Rupp? Another question, what will be the most important training feature or element that Mosop must concentrate upon during the next year to produce 2:02:22? Is Mosop finished competing at 10,000m now that 42.2k is the focus? Thank you in advance for your continued writing here on Let's Run. Best!
inspired coach
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 8:22AM - in reply to littleboyblue Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mr Canova is such a class act and a credit to our sport. Thank you for sharing this.
MAYEROFF
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 8:30AM - in reply to inspired coach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mr. Canova is probably the most accessible and approachable high level coach in our sport. I've met him, and I can tell you it's like having an impromptu office hour with your favorite professor of all time. He has no ego, only love of the sport at all levels.

All the best to you and your athletes Renato!!!
Renato Canova
Coach
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 9:26AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
For the first time there were 9 athletes able running under 27’ in the same race. However, the real value of those times can be better, since the pace was very bad at the beginning, with the second and third lap in 68”. This fact means that the athletes lost 8” from the planned schedule, and this doesn’t mean they saved energy, on the contrary they had to spend more energies for launching the speed again.
In fact, one thing is to run at even pace a little bit slower than the final goal, distributing for all the first part of the race the possibility to save energy (like, for example, running an average of 64.5 instead 64.0 per lap) : in this case it’s possible to have a negative split very consistant, and this is the normal way we use for running fast from 3000m to Marathon. Different thing is to run two laps very slow and completely out of the plan. In this case we don’t save energy, but WASTE time.
Threfore, since the wasted time was about 8”, we can suppose the final time could be under 26’40” for Mo Farah, about 26’40” for Imane Merga and Josphat Bett, and in any case better for everybody.
Mo Farah ran his first 5 km in 13’29”5, because was at the end of the group, still including 16 athletes, so his splits were 13’29”5 + 13’17”, with a last lap of 2’30”72 and a last lap of 54”2. This can show good possibilities of winning WCh, if Bekele is not able to go back in his best shape on time.
Mo was already able running under 27’ last year, but the only 10000m (European Champs apart) he ran was the European Challenge, when he had a rabbit (Philemon Limo) for 6800m and had to run alone the last 8 laps, finishing in 27’28”. We spoke together several times about his best choice for Olympic (he was in training in Iten for long time), and I explained him why he could hope to win 10000m in Olympic, having better chances than in 5000m.
Imane Merga was in 26’40” shape, and he showed in the race that this evaluation was correct. He paid a little bit the victory in the 5000m of Rome one week before, but in any case the distance, more new for him (also if he was number 4 in WCh in Berlin), reduced a little his qualities for the final kick. I think that we have still to work for increasing his specific endurance.
Josphat Bett was not a big surprise for who knows the best Kenyan talents. He won the World Junior Champs in 2008 with 27’30”85, and in 2009 was already able running 12’57”43 in 5000m. Last year had a bad season due to an injury, but this year everything was ok, and he started to show his talent, more oriented to longer distances. He showed good personality in the race, with a last km in 2’32” that can allow him to be considered a possible winner in every 10000m when the pace is fast. Shining future for this young athlete.
Paul Tanui improved from 27’17”61 of last year, but confirmed his lack of final speed. Personally, I see this guy as one of the top marathon runners of the future.
Mathew Kisorio, having good basic speed (his PB are 7’34”09 in 3000 and 12’57”83 in 5000), can also become one of the best Marathon runners. He started already to move in that direction, under the guidance of Claudio Berardelli, running a HM in 60:29 this winter.
Mark Kiptoo is the only athlete under 27’ already old (is now 35 years old), but continues to improve. His PB are all in the last two years (7’32”97 and 12’53”46), while his previous PB in 10000m was in Eugene 2008 (27’14”67) in the race Kenenisa Bekele won.
Leonard Komon confirmed that his future is on the road. His lack of final speed can’t allow him in winning any race if not able to move alone, but on track there are many athletes can stay with him till the last lap. He wants to run a HM at the end of the season, and we can wait for a performance under 59’.
An interesting athlete is the first over 27’, the World Junior Champion of Cross Geoffrey Kipsang. He started running in 2010 only, and had some experience in small meetings, working with a small manager. His PB were 3’48”15 in 1500m, 7’54”15 in 3000 and 13’42”01 in 5000m. Geoffrey has particular attitude (mental, too) for long distances, and already had the idea to move to Marathon. Of course, due to his young age, his coach Patrick Sang prefers to have one year on the track, also if he already ran, on 3rd of April, the HM of Berlin, finishing in 60’38”. He will be in 5000m next week in New York, and can be interesting to see him (my personal expectation is for a time around 13’10”).
At the end, we can say that, if good races of 10000m could be organised 3-4 times during a season, we could have not less than 25 athletes under 27’. I can give the list, only for fun : the 9 athletes already under 27’ in Eugene plus the following (divided for category) :
a) HM and Marathon runners (Mosop, Mutai, Kitwara, Bernard Kipyego, Gebremariam)
b) Young athletes (Geoffrey Kipsang, David Bett)
c) Specialists of 5000m (Kipchoge, Soi, Chepkok, Lucas Rotich)
d) US runners (Solinski, Rupp, waiting the come back of Ritzenhain)
e) Top specialists not in Eugene (Kipsiro, Josphat Menjo)
f) Kenyan based in Japan (Mathati, Ndambiri, Ngatuny)
g) And, at the end, the king : KENENISA BEKELE
So, don’t think running under 27’ can be an incredible performance, as the value you need in 5000m for running so fast is between 13’05” and 13’10”, of course with a specific preparation.
People not knowing the real possibilities of the athletes, and not knowing the athletic history, speak about doping for something that is a normal performance only, of course related with top athletes.
irarelypost
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 9:47AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Mr. Canova, Just wanted to thank you for all the insightful posts you have shared. I always look forward to reading these race analyses, and appreciate that you continue to do these in spite of the occassional idotic respones that you sometimes get.
davidk
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 9:55AM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
First another fraction of interest

15-25k in 28:33. Mid race he starts dropping 2-3sec per km but for 10km he drops 3-4 with 2x1km 10 seconds under the prior pace. Outstanding

Coach Canova two questions. What was his reaction after the 30km besides the world record? Did he still feel fresh? How was the recovery of Mosop the day after this compared to Boston?
Renato Canova
Coach
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 10:38AM - in reply to davidk Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
After Boston, Moses was able to recovery in about 10 days his full efficiency. The recovery after a marathon depends, mainly, on the psychological situation of the athlete. When a marathon is very fast, normally the athlete is able to recovery in shorter time. This fact can seem a contraddiction, but this is not true.
Why an athlete is able running very fast ? Because the objective situation (expecially the weather) allowed him in doing it. When a marathon is run in difficult conditions (for example, WCh 2007 in Osaka, when Luke Kibet won with 2:15:59 and Shami was second with more than 2:17:00), the consumption of fuel and the loss of mineral salts are very high, so the athletes must seek for finding some support in their body, going to scratch the bottom of the barrel. In these cases, after the race the body is completely exhausted, and the athlete needs a very long recovery, in order to regenerate his previous efficiency.
But, when the external situation can allow one athlete to run fast, the only problem for the body is that at the end of the race the tank is empty, but there is no exhaustion. In this case, few days of rest and of little training are enough for fully recovering the best efficiency, and the case the athlete can reach a better shape soon after a marathon is frequent. For example, this fact happened with Paula Radcliffe in 2002 (she ran her PB in 3000m, 8'22", in her first race after her first marathon in London) and with the Italian Record Holder Maura Viceconte, that bettered the National Record of 10000m (31'05"57) after bettering the National Record of Marathon (2:23:47 winning Vienna in 2000).
Instead, after 30 km the athlete doesn't face a complete depletion of fuel, especially in a case like this one, when Moses was conservative during the first 15 km (so arguable the record, also if very important, doesn't represent his best possible performance). Moses had only some small problem in his left calf, due on the track surface, that produces a different reaction compared with tarmac or rough road.
We think he can be in training in 4 days (now he's going to Kenya). I advised him to train with his wife Florence Kiplagat during the next days, for recovering nervous energies (we don't have any goal in competitions at the moment, the race of 10 km in Boston on 26th of June is a parade for the top 3 in Boston marathon, but not something to prepare specifically) and, at the same time, for helping Florence in rebuilding her self-confidence, after the strange situation she had in Boston marathon. Chicago is still very far, and it's not possible to maintain a top shape for so long time.
ventolin^3
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 2:35PM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Renato Canova wrote:Leonard Komon confirmed that his future is on the road. His lack of final speed can’t allow him in winning any race if not able to move alone, but on track there are many athletes can stay with him till the last lap. He wants to run a HM at the end of the season, and we can wait for a performance under 59’


i hope for his sake you are not his coach

1 sub-par race & immediately you want him to give up on track & go to roads permanently & invariably with your mantra "move him to the M" which seems to be your philosophy for everyone !

you remind me off the medieval docs who's cure for every ailment was blood-letting !!

he has plenty decent speed with a 7'33 in the past

this was a far from optimal performance - being 11s slower than his road best on loop course

maybe he's not in top shape presently &/or he got a bit intimidated by quality of field & didn't run his best

however, to consign his track career to the bin off 1 sub-optimal performance, despite being a track pb is ridiculous !
malmo
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 2:41PM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ventolin^3 wrote:

i hope for his sake you are not his coach




Eldrick. Stop it. You are now looking as stupid as the snotty nosed brats who stalk you.
mutai
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 2:48PM - in reply to Renato Canova Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I've heard of Mosop targeting the WCh marathon in Daegu. Is he instead going to run in Chicago this fall?
If so who are the kenyans selected for the WCh?
Reallly???????????????????????
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 2:53PM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

ventolin^3 wrote:

[quote]Renato Canova wrote:"Leonard Komon confirmed that his future is on the road. His lack of final speed can’t allow him in winning any race if not able to move alone, but on track there are many athletes can stay with him till the last lap. He wants to run a HM at the end of the season, and we can wait for a performance under 59’
"

"i hope for his sake you are not his coach

1 sub-par race & immediately you want him to give up on track & go to roads permanently & invariably with your mantra "move him to the M" which seems to be your philosophy for everyone !

you remind me off the medieval docs who's cure for every ailment was blood-letting !!

he has plenty decent speed with a 7'33 in the past

this was a far from optimal performance - being 11s slower than his road best on loop course

maybe he's not in top shape presently &/or he got a bit intimidated by quality of field & didn't run his best

however, to consign his track career to the bin off 1 sub-optimal performance, despite being a track pb is ridiculous ![/quote]"

He meant that Komon can not kick with the leaders as clearly shown by this race as he finished last in the pack of 9 that all broke 27 minutes...Not that he can't run fast(as in time wise) but that he can't run fast(or slow for that matter, probably even more so) and have a lot of speed at the end(as clearly shown once again by this race).

A kick is becoming an absolutely VITAL component of winning a race anywhere from 1500m-10000m(and 400m, 800m too although probably "kick" should be more like mantaining speed through the last 100-200 for those races).

It's incredibly obvious that is what Renato meant, not what you are(falsely) interpreting it to mean.
ventolin^3
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 3:32PM - in reply to malmo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

malmo wrote:Stop it. You are now looking as stupid as the snotty nosed brats who stalk you.


Malmo

I apologise to Canova if this was an error in narrative & as English is his 2nd langiage.

However, if Komon was a Western athlete with a 26'44 road WR & his coach told him to give up on the track because of 1 sub-optimal performnce, the parochial fans & National Fed would probably confront the coach with pitchforks in-tow !
ventolin^3
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 3:48PM - in reply to Reallly??????????????????????? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

Reallly??????????????????????? wrote:A kick is becoming an absolutely VITAL component of winning a race anywhere from 1500m-10000m(and 400m, 800m too although probably "kick" should be more like mantaining speed through the last 100-200 for those races).

It's incredibly obvious that is what Renato meant, not what you are(falsely) interpreting it to mean.


so, the era of "strong men" is over ?

no kick - no win ???

only if you have a fit kennster there who can run wr & can kick like a mule

however, this is not the 26'17 era

the best guys in this race were ~ 26'40 shape & maybe with fine-tuning they can get down to 26'35

kenyans may not have the kickers, but they got strong guys - komon, kiprop, menjo, mutai

3 of them in a kennster-less championship woud have to make it a team effort :

2 of them take it from the gun & alternate laps, with favored guy always in 3rd ( the "tergat" of the piece )

take it thru in 13'15 & the 2 keep alternating until the "tergat" senses pace diminution ( it may not ! ) & then kick on past

they will have to make it a team race for 26'25 - 26'30 & i'd bet bottom $ one of 4 mentioned coud do it

no "kick" required in this scenario

if you want an example, read up on sydney 10k - geb has said that if the kenyans ( who were working for tergat ) had gone hard from 5k out rather than 3k, he woudn't have been able to hang onto tergat as he wasn't in top shape ( i e not 26'22, but maybe some many handful of secs slower )
hannsen
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 4:02PM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Nice thread and race analysis i feel like this is what this site used to be like. For once(or at least for rarely) I feel like im gaining knowledge/ideas instead of losing brain cells haha.
Nutella1
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 5:51PM - in reply to Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What I find impressive is that Mosop runs this time 3 weeks after Boston. Very nice.

However, if you convert his time to Marathon (e.g. Mcmillan) you'll end up with 2:05 flat and not 2:02.

I have no doubt that Mosop can run 2:05 or 2:04 Marathon but saying that he could run 2:02 based on this performance is a bit optimistic.
Renato Canova
Coach
RE: Technical Analysis of 30km and 10000m in Eugene 6/5/2011 6:35PM - in reply to ventolin^3 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Ventolin, may be you are a rich man, but Kenyan are not in this category. Now I explain why Komon, also if he likes tr ack, already planned to move on road races.
Last year in Oslo (Diamond League) he ran 12'58", becoming n. 9 like in Eugene. He received a prize of 200 USD. His ticket for going Oslo from Kenya had a cost of 1200 USD, and the official reimbursement was of 700 USD. Since you are an expert mathematic, you can see that, for running 12'58", he had to pay 300 USD from his pocket.

On the contrary, not much time ago, he went to New York for winning a road race of 10 km. Putting together prize connected with his victory and a bonus for the race record, he won 45,000 USD.

Do you think he can continue to run on the track for making you and your calculator happy, or for his future life is it better he can use his talent in more practic way?

Of course, if you can become his sponsor and can give him a contract of 300,000 USD per year asking to run track only, may be he can accept.

Life, such as training, is affected by REAL problems. Your calculator, and probably yourself, are living in a fantastic world that too many times nothing has to do with the reality.
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