800 meter training

Juanterena would run as much as 15miles in a given day.

exactly....developing the speed is the easy part. it's the aerobic capacity that sets 800m runners apart- so few are willing to work to develop it.

This guy has a few suggestions.

I would disagree . . . I believe you were misquoting Mr. Juantorena. He used to joke, according to Track's Greatest Champions, that he ran the least mileage of any world-class 800 runner, running 15 miles a WEEK. I'm not sure Juantorena is a valid sample; he was a complete freak of nature in his body type and his success was based around 400 training to the point where 50 was a breeze because he had already run 44.

That being said, the comment about speed and aerobic power is correct. Usually, especially if you've come from the 400, you have the speed, but you need to refine the strength to endure 2 laps. Hence, a little more mileage (35-45/week).

Quality speed work and pushing your lactic threshold is the most important aspects to 800 meter training. I don't think there's any real use running over 40 miles per week (in season)unless you want to run a quality 1500. An 800 meter runner needs to train his body to sustain a fast pace for 2 laps. 6-7 min miles runs will not get him/her there. In other words, if you want to be able to run a sub 1:50, then you need to be able to feel comfortable running 54 sec quarters.

on Juantorena: a quote from Running With the Legends by Mike Sandrock were Alberto describes a Lydiard-esque base building period of 25km per day

8hun wrote:

Quality speed work and pushing your lactic threshold is the most important aspects to 800 meter training. I don't think there's any real use running over 40 miles per week (in season)unless you want to run a quality 1500. An 800 meter runner needs to train his body to sustain a fast pace for 2 laps. 6-7 min miles runs will not get him/her there. In other words, if you want to be able to run a sub 1:50, then you need to be able to feel comfortable running 54 sec quarters.

How is that athlete supposed to get there? They need a superior oxygen delivery system so they take longer to produce less lactate at higher speeds.

Talk to Renato on this. He trains 400m/800m runners. Did you know that in 2001, the day before Bucher ran a session of 4x200m in 21.x with 8 min rest, he ran a 30:15 10km @ 1800m altitude?

He's coached 1:43 runners. guys like Bungei have ran 45.x and 1:42. Offseason they run as much as 140km (87mpw) and in season cut it to 100km per week.

If you want I can post the training he has sent me.

I'd be interested in seeing that training if you wouldn't mind posting it.

I think it makes sense to run 50-65 (depending on the runner) in the off-season. I don't think long intervals or long miles are needed early, middle or late season. Mixing in longer intervals/runs will just take away from the quality sessions. Every runner is different and exceptions can be found for every type of training. In general, I think a low milage and high quality training regeme works best for a pure 400/800 meter runner. Not talking about 800/1500 runners.

BTW I've tried both. And my experience was that I felt flat with a high milage program. The longer intervals didn't get me properly prepared to run 800 meter pace. Even though I had more endurance at the end of a race I wasn't able to keep up with the leaders because I spent the first 600 meters running out of my comfort zone.

If you master running comfortably at goal race pace, then you'll be successfull in race situations.

You don't need to run 10Ks or 85 mpw to develope a superior oxygen system required for a 1 and 2 lap race. You'll just train your body to run slow.

it's all about strength. the "only" thing milage does for you is get you in good enough shape for strength training. i.e. instead of 3 by 400 in 53 you can do 5 by 400 in 53. the 800 isn't about feeling comfortable running 45 for one lap, or having 59 feel like nothing, it'e about feeling good at 52. Strength, do about 45-55 miles with lots of hills and repeast 1000's

When do you stop the hill repeats and 1000s? Are these workouts done early season or throughout?

8hunr,

you need to build the tools so you can do that work. Look at the top 800m runners Coe (I know i'll get shitted on for this), Bungei, Bucher, Cram all 1:42 or better and all would tran over 140km/wk in base. And guys like Wilson K., as you'll see if the following posts, have huge aerobic bases off of which to do their work -- the same cannot be said of American runners.

FROM RENATO:

1. Does continual anaerobic track work break down the aerobic capacities of your athletes?

Yes, of sure. But in their training during the competition season, after 3 races in short time, normally they use a period of 2-3 weeks for recharging the aerobic system. For lasting a full season at top level, we need think that RACES ARE THE INTENSITY, and the type of training is of volume, for balancing this intensity. Of course, it's possible to train aerobic power not only running long time (during the period of competitions they rarely run 1 hs easy, more frequently 40-45 min a day with technical exercises : this is one of two daily sessions), but expecially using intervals not fast (for ex., 10 x 500m in 1'15" with 1 min recovery, or 2 x 1000 + 2 x 800 + 2 x 600 + 2 x 400 + 2 x 200, rec, 2 min between tests and 5 min between couples, the first one not fast (2'45" - 2'10" - 1'33" - 58" - 26"), the second fast at 90 % of your possibility (2'30" - 1'57" - 1'23" - 52" - 23"). This is a mixed work of volume, that has a base of aerobic, and a development in lactacid.

2. What kind of lifetime and current mileage levels are your 800m runners at?

kenyans ran for long time (may be 10 years about) from 10 to 20 km per day in natural way, but this one also is training. Training is not only the OFFICIAL WORK, but every activity that can modify your body and your mind. So, they have of sure an anaerobic threshold very higher than the threshold of European or American runners. So, also if they now don't run many km, it doesn't mean that are not prepared, because aerobic activity was the most important training when were very young....I never did a count about their total mileage. I know very well their weekly mileage, that is about 140 km per week during the preparation period, no more than 100 during competition season. In my count, I consider everything (for ex., km. of warm-up and of regeneration), that are the higher percentage of the mileage (about 60 %). Is not the same running slowly or not running, like many coaches think. A bigger quantity of slow run can help your body in recovering and transforming your lactacid work in performance, maintaining a correct balancement between aerobic and anaerobic system. NEVER YOUR AEROBIC LEVEL MUST DECREASE, if you want to improve !

3. Would you train a Kenyan 800m runner and an American/Western 800m differently?

Of course, training must be different. In an African, you can think that the basic, natural work of running is already enough, and you have to qualify this, not to build. For a western young athlete (may be also european), you must use more massive run in aerobic way in order to build a base that they don't have yet. In any case, today is a mistake to prolong for too long time the aerobic work in exclusive way : we must to improve at the same time in every side of your qualities (aerobic, lactacid, strenght, ability, rapidity). You must use long run for building the aerobic base, but also very intense exercises for improving your nervous capacity and specific exercises for improving sytrenght. Every 2-3 months, you must leave the basic work, going to specific (for ex., lactacid tests), for a short period (may be one month), and after you come back to the system of before. THIS IS MODULATION !

about 800m runners/training:

About 800m, of course a top runner must run 400m in 46.0 or less. Wilfred Bungei, that never was very fast, 10 days before winning Bruxelles with 1:42.52 ran in Davos, in a training-test, 45.07 hand timed, and also Yiampoy is able running under 46.0. About Joseph Mutua, I personally clocked him in 43.9 during last stage of relay last year in World Military Championships. But, regarding long distance runners, the situation is completely different....One of the problems when we are speaking about different distances is that you can obtain the same performance having very different attitudes. For example, if you accept the idea that 800m can be an event having from 40 to 70 % of lactic involvement, you can have at the top athletes like Juantorena or Konchellah or Fiasconaro, coming from 400m, or like Coe, Cram, Bucher, coming from more long distances. For ex., speaking about Bucher, he was a former runner in World Cross Country Championships when was junior, and began his activity running 10000m. In 2001, I personally saw him in St. Moritz (1800m of altitude) running one day 3 times 200m in 21.5 / 21.7 / 21.6 with 8 min recovery, and the day after a 10000m on track in 30:18. So, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to compare different athletes following a table like that one...Steve Cram, able running under 3:30, had a personal best of 1:42.88 on 800m also if never was able running under 48.5 in 400m (and 47.5 in relay in his best season).

There you have it. This is THE guy we always talk about. The guy who coaches the runners we follow. 1:42 800m runners to 26:30 10ks to 2:07 marathons.

People on this board always thing more, more, more, then they quote some Kenyan training book on what someone should do.

I am a former 400-800 runner and have trained countless at the college level. First stop thinking everyone here is national caliber or future WR holder.

Nothing wrong with being a 51 second 400 guy looking to become sub 155 on a CONSISTENT basis with maybe a PR of 153.

I train my athletes to maximize their speed under the theory that if you can get someone to run 49 in the 400 then running 53-54 in the first 400 of the 800 is going to be using less of their max.

A typical training program here.

Fall 35-40 miles over 6 days. 2 lifting days, a plyometric day and two workouts. Workouts are usually off track. The range from things like 6-10 hills of varying distance, 300-1000m runs on grass, trails, with short rest, followed by longer rest and then more sets.

During season 30 miles per week 2 lifting days, until the late comp phase. Workouts. Indoor 2 on the track. One fast 400m speed type workout in spikes. One will be longer not in trainers or racing flats usually more of and 800 meter pace workout. 400's 600's 800's 1000's and the ocasional 1200. Outdoors 2 the workouts phase down to very short and very fast and the 2nd workout is usually a total of 1600m or less.

"I've always felt that long, slow distance produces long, slow runners." - Sebastian Coe

1:41.73 ... end of story.

One shoe fits all,

Where do you coach and what levels of success do you have? I am looking to adopt a program based on 30-40 miles mostly due to time constraints. I have run 1:51 on a more mileage type program with intervals. Any way to contact you?

hills and 1000's type workouts, say late sep-jan if you're planning on running indoors

one shoe fits all is right.

you can't train like the kenyans. running 75 miles a week won't make you an 800 guy, it will make you a distance runner. i've been running the 800 for a few years now, after being a 400 guys for years. i'm running more milage now than i ever did before, but i only run the milage in the off season and the preseason. even then, i only run about 20-25 miles a week. i run a little harder than a usual jogging pace, maybe about 19:00-20:00 min 5k pace, but not that much mileage. during the season, i do repeats on m,w,f and plyometrics and hills on t,r. basically the same workouts as i did as a 400 guy, but longer with less rest. i'm not that fast, 1:51, but i think overall the training is working for me. i also lift a lot of wieghts......i'm not that sure the weights help a huge amount, but i don't think it hurts. i think it helps my body handle the beating of the hard workouts.

i'm not a 800 specialist, but i trust my coach.

I'm also interest in a 30-40 miles program and would be interested in hearing more.

who do you want to know?

ne w 800 guy wrote:

one shoe fits all is right.

you can't train like the kenyans. running 75 miles a week won't make you an 800 guy, it will make you a distance runner.

this is not meant to be personal, but that's the stupidest shit I've heard in a long time.

let's go through the line of great 800m runners:

Coe -- 150km/week in base

Snell -- 150-160km/week in base

Juanterena -- up to 25km/day (according to aforementioned source)

W. Kipketer -- 30,000+ lifetime miles

Bungei -- see above

Bucher -- don't have a # on mileage, but he can run 30:18 10k @ 1800m altitude.

Kimutai -- 20,000+ lifetime miles

see aboveAmerican's have been on your system of 40 mpw for sometime now, and the only one who is doing anything for the USA in the 800m is David Krummenacer, who has run 20,000+miles and is coached by a man who said the following:?Those young athletes ran long distances to school for many years, and in doing so, they developed day-by-day into excellent middle-distance runners, even at an early age. In the US or in western Europe, people drive to school or ride school buses. This means their runners are at the same point at a much older age than those in Kenya.?