| KK vs FS |
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Ten Fastest Marathons by an American (As of 10-27-06) 2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi London 2002 (#3 All-time) *2:05:32 Khalid Khannouchi Chicago 1999 (#4 All-time) 2:05:56 Khalid Khannouchi Chicago 2002 (#7 All-time) 2:07:01 Khalid Khannouchi Chicago 2000 (#54 All-time) 2:07:04 Khalid Khannouchi London 2006 (#59 All-time) 2:08:44 Khalid Khannouchi Chicago 2004 (#319 All-time) 2:08:51 Alberto Salazar Boston 1982 (#364 All-time) 2:08:53 Dick Beardsley Boston 1982 2:08:56 Abdi Abdirahman Chicago 2006 2:09:00 Greg Meyer Boston 1983 2:09:21 Alberto Salazar Fukuoka 1983 So Khannouchi has the 6 fastest times by an American, and still has the 5 fastest if you throw out Chicago in 1999. His best is 3 minutes faster than the second fastest American. He has 6 times in the top 350 All-time, and no other American has any. He is the only American to hold the world record in the marathon since 1963. His only blemish is his lack of olympic medals. I think you would have to say Khannouchi is better than Rogers and Salazar becasue Khannouchi's times are faster and Rogers and Salazar have no medals either. Meb has a silver in Athens, but has only run 2:09:53, almost 4 minutes behind Khannouchi, good for only the 12th fastest American and the 21st fastest time by an American. That leaves us with Frank Shorter. Shorter never held the world record, and his fastest is only 2:10:30, not even in the top 1000 All-time. Kannouchi's would have finished nearly 5 minutes, or almost a full mile in front of Shorter. However, Shorter has an Olypic gold in Munich and a silver behind a confirmed doper in Montreal. There are 5 or 6 races a year where the World Record could possibly be broken if the conditions are good (Chicago, London, Rotterdam), but the chance to win an olypic medal comes on a single day every 4 years. So I believe the question of is Khalid Khannouchi the best American marathoner of all-time boils down to this: Khannouchi vs. Shorter, what defines greatness, World records and total domination of the all-time list, or Olympic medal count? |
| SB |
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There's certainly a lot of room for argument in my opinion. I also wonder what Meb would run if he ran in good conditions on a really fast course. I don't think he'd run KK's times, but I think a 2:07 is reasonable, maybe better. How would you then fit him in? times: KK MK FS important places: FS MK KK there is enough fodder for votes for anybody. then you've got the PED issue. |
| hardset nipples |
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Remember the OT? Fast course, good conditions. |
| hardset nipples |
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KK isn't done, yet. |
| Just my take... |
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The Olympics is the biggest stage our sport has and Shorter came through with gold and silver. KK has run run fast in major marathons, but hasn't come through with a world championship or Olympic medal. Meb and KK are close and I can go either way. |
| runsss |
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I think the biggest tell tale sign of a great runner in our sport is the old rule of "who's the best on that particular day, course and time." Therefore I'd go with Shorter, since he's been able to come through and beat the top marathon fields in the world in the biggest races (Olympics). I don't think you can truely compare runners just on time. Weather, course and field conditions all go into the times. I guess the only way to really know who is better would be to have Khalid and Frank run the same course, on the same day and both at their peak. Unfortunately we won't ever get to see a race like that. Altho I am a huge fan of KK too, I wish he would run something like the Olympic marathon and see what he can do for medals. This is a dumb question, but I really don't know so forgive me, is he even eligible for the Olympics now? |
| WDC Runner |
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Let's be more fair to Frank. How high did he place on the list at the time he ran his fastest races? Comparing times run in the last few years to those run 30 years ago isn't quite fair, at least the way I think. |
| Munson |
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Khannouchi doesn't just have the better times relative to a runner from an earlier era, he also held the World Record for nearly four years (although the record he set as an American only lasted a year and a half). And it's hard to say that Shorter beat better competition than Khannouchi did at London 2002 (Tergat and Gebrselassie). But the fact that he never medaled at Olympics or World Championship does mean there's room for debate. |
| Flagpole Willy |
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Q: Is Khalid Khannouchi the greatest American Marathoner of All-Time? A: YES. |
| SB |
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Remember the OT? Fast course, good conditions.[/quote] I don't think it's fair to compare a championship marathon (OT) where it's not appropriate to gamble a little bit. He'd have been crazy to try to run 2:07 when he knew a slower time would get him on the team. |
| HRE |
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"Greatest" is always going to be a subjective title so if you think he is, he is, at least for you. It's very difficult to compare the sport over those years as it's very different now. But the one constant is the Olympics and I just can't consider a guy to be "greatest" if he doesn't have some Olympic hardware, so I'd rate Shorter comfortably ahead of Khannouchi. I'm also inclined to rate Rodgers ahead of Khannouchi because Khannouchi has shown that he can win one sort of race, i.e., a race run over a flat, fast, course with an army of rabbits setting a fast pace. I believe all of his wins have been either at London or Chicago. Rodgers was much more versatile with wins at Boston and New York, but also at Fukuoka and at various other marathons. Plus, he could win off of fast paces or off of slower paces. |
| wag the dog |
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Actually the answer is no. Greatness requires medals, not just fast times. Is he the FASTEST American Marathoner of All-Time. Yes. |
| Flagpole Willy |
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Actually the answer is no. Greatness requires medals, not just fast times.[/quote] Just a matter of opinion brother. KK ran in a much more competitive time, and while running 2:05 one day, he beat both Tergat and Geb, two of the greatest distance runners the world has ever seen. KK much faster during a MUCH more competitive time, and he's done it far more than twice. I give the nod to KK. |
| jer |
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I think its Frank Shorter who is the best because he was born in america, KK was not. KK is great but not the greatest "american" FS all the way |
| Tu Cents |
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The Olympics only come up every 4 years. It's hard to determine the greatest marathoner based on a race that's held only 2 or 3 times at most in your entire marathon career. If the Olympics is the main criterion for determining the greatest American marathoner, the same criterion would dismiss Tergat, Geb, and Paula from consideration as the greatest marathoners ever. |
| ROAR |
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great point.Tergat is the best anyway. |
| The North Face |
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Don't you think Dean Karnazes is the greatest? If you don't think so, just ask him. |
| The OG |
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Don't you mean, "because he was born in Germany"? |
| David Katz |
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We need to remeber that our sports is based on competition. We record times (and distances) for historical purposes. The Greatest in Athletics - regardless of the event has always been based on their ability to win the big races, the big show downs. Rarely are distance records set in the World Championships or the Olympics. The win is valued higher then anything else. Olympic and World Champions are virtual Gods in many countries. Records will always be broken but Gold Medals are never taken away (except for the those who obtained them via drugs). I think Frank Shorter had won the Fukuoka Marathon several times prior to his gold in 1972. Fukuoka was considered the "unoffcial" world marathon championship. He has two Olympic medals in his pocket (should have been 2 gold). If you ask the athletes they will tell you what's more important. You need to win the big ones to be considered the best. Paula has one the World Championship. Greatness is counted by gold not by a clock. I think the winner of the Marathon Major would also rank high to determine ones greatness. Anyone who can defeat the best in the world over a two year period is truly great. |
| wag the dog |
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Yes I know it's a matter of opinion brother. He beat Tergat and Geb in London, but never in a championship or olympics. Never when it counted. Greatness requires medals. I give the nod elsewhere. |