425
training pace for the mile 12/23/2003 6:26PM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Im wanting to run around 4:25 in the mile (indoors) this year. I was wondering what kind of pace I should be running my training runs in, meaning my normal 5-9 miles. I dont usually wear a watch in fear that i will push to hard on med. days. I think im runing about 6:50-6:25 depending on how I feel and if the day came after a workout or not. Any help would be nice.
malmo
RE: training pace for the mile 12/23/2003 6:51PM - in reply to 425 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Arguably the most successful coach in college history, Jumbo Elliot, figured this out a long time ago. 6x400 or 10x400 twice a week at race pace. Race for blood three times on the weekend. Do this week after never ending week for months at a time. Ever hear of Jumbo's runners burning out at Nationals? Ever hear of his runners saving it for the future? I didn't think so.

And we've got geniuses who've never laced up a pair of spikes on who think that they know more than Jumbo did?
omlam
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 4:03AM - in reply to malmo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What school did he coach and what were his athletes places? All-americans? National Champions? OLY QUALY'S?
kartelite
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 5:14AM - in reply to 425 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
To answer your question about pace on non-workout days, you can try searching through old threads. This question has been debated over and over; if you were following Hadd's approach you probably wouldn't be running so fast, but that all depends on your heart rate. I ran a 4:05 1500m (~4:25 mile) last year, but never ran faster than 7:00 pace on my regular training days, but I think to a large extent it's whatever floats your boat. After putting in a fall of 100 mile weeks I think I may be able to handle doing the malmo/kenyan-style tempo runs on a regular basis, it kinda depends on your aerobic background.

If you're able to recover well at 6:30 pace, then it seems okay to keep on doing it. But instead of worrying about pace, maybe you should try doing more mileage, even if your focus is mid-distance. I think Marius said, "7 miles a day is not proper distance training." What about your long runs, are you doing them at the same pace? If so, does it still feel easy? I think Hadd said something to the effect of "M+60 is NOT an easy run." While it may be easy for very well-conditioned athletes, I think for most of us it isn't something we should do every day. I've never run a marathon, but my HM+90 is the fastest pace that I can still consider "easy." Hopefully more people will respond, I imagine there's a lot of individual variation.
bfullem1
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 5:44AM - in reply to omlam Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Omlam, he coached at Villanova. He coached Olypmic champions: Ron Delany, Charlie Jenkins etc. He coached American and World Record Holders and World Champions: Eamonn Coghlin, Marty Liquori, Don Paige, Marcus O'Sullivan, Sydnee Maree. National Champs, Oly Qualifiers? Too many to mention. Penn Relays? Every year he was there.

Brian
Joe Rubio
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 8:01AM - in reply to 425 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Assuming you have been doing this fast running thing for a few seasons, then on your training days that are NOT recovery days, I would ask my milers to run around 6:30 pace towards the end of their runs if they are a 4:25 miler. What does this mean specifically? It means the last 5k or so of their Sunday 14-18 mile long run they would average about 6:30 pace. Same for their normal mid week 60-90 minute runs. They would be asked to monitor the last few miles and see if they could get it in this range. This is if they are experienced and they have spent the last 3-4 months of the fall at their current weekly mileage levels. If they are just reaching new mileage goals, I just ask them to get the miles in and not worry about the pace so much.

On days designated as a recovery day I'll ask for one or two 20-40 minute runs be done at about 7-7:30 pace or slower (again for a 4:25 miler). Right now, meaning late December, my milers do a single recovery run each week at near jogging pace, then their standard harder days such as 100-1600's reps, tempos, hill reps, etc done 3 days per week. The remaining 3 days of the week are 60-120 minute runs at roughly 75% VO2max the last few miles which 6:30 pace is for a 4:25 miler. Usually each week it's one 60 min run (Tues), one 70-80 minute run in the hills (Thurs) and one 100-120 minute run (Sun) done each week in this fashion at this time of the year. They do this every week from now through the middle to end of March. This is based on their goal races being run in June/July.

For my female 1500 runner who ran 4:18 for 1500 last year, she's running about 6:40 pace or so towards the end of her current 60-120 minute runs and she's doing this 3 days per week right now in addition to the 3 harder workouts and a single recovery day. She'll get this pace down to 6:20 pace or when fit, probably around February. So 3 days a week, she's running the following:

Tues: 8-9 miles, last 2-4 miles strong (6:40 pace or better)
Thurs: 10-11 in the hills with the last 5k strong
Sun: 14-17 miles, last 3-5 miles strong.

To put this in perspective, last Sunday she ran her long run with a member of the US World Champs marathon team which means it was not that slow or easy. A guy I worked with in the late 90's who went from 3:46 down to 3:39 in one season got to the point that year where he could run a weekly 17 mile long run with a local 28:11 10k guy and not get dropped. You always gotta remember that the 1500 is a distance race and if you can't run your long run consistently with the local stud 5k or 10k guy, you better set your sights on running with them every week at some point cause that's what it take to get good. Fast speed stuff is fun, these runs 3 days a week is the real work all the old guys keep talking about. Just make sure you take a very easy day each week to keep a consistent recovery day in there to make sure your body get some needed rest and you'll be good.

Another minor or not so minor point to all this is when you get fit say in the spring, if you can run the 2-3 days away from the track that are not recovery runs at say 80% VO2max (6:10 pace or so for a 4:25 miler) for a good 15-25 minutes of the run you are effectively getting in your "tempo" work or put another way, you are maintaining your anaerobic conditioning component without spending an entire training day devoted to a "tempo" run. Therfore if you get in the habit of running at less than a comfy pace after your warmed up 2-3 days per week and maintain the pace in this 80% range in the spring after a full winter of training as outlined above, you can do all the short, fast stuff you want the 3 track days and get good results granted the days away from the track are not all jog and jiggle. This is why you generally don't see "tempo" runs specifically in a miler's spring training too much because the runs way from the track are finishing up a fairly brisk paces. For your 4 flat miler, it would be around 5:30-40 pace near the end of their average run. So as a rough guide in the fall we go 65-70% VO2max on runs away from the track, in the winter it's 70-75%, in the spring it's 75-80% for the last 15-25 minutes of most runs and for what it's worth we figure guys VO2max at current 5k race pace, women's at 3k pace.

The thing is with all of the above is that you need several seasons of running in your legs to handle this level of training. If you just try to jump into it without some consistent background approaching this, you'll tank or get broke. That's why I say if you are newer to competitive running, I'd go with just covering the distance and let the pace be what it is. As you get better and faster the paces will tend to fall into these ranges without really trying. These are simply guidelines, you won't fall into the center of the earth if you fail to follow them. Still the people I have who made big, big jumps on their abilities to race a mile did the above in most every case. Just one guy's experience, not written in stone at all.

Happy Holidays and best of luck getting that 4:25.

Joe
bum
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 9:56AM - in reply to Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Cut the boy some slack malmo!!! Young grasshoppers have to start somewhere.
malmo
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 10:01AM - in reply to bum Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
??????
Truth Guy
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 10:14AM - in reply to malmo Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
who is Alan Webb?

and why does Bambi's mother die?
king99
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 5:27PM - in reply to Truth Guy Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Malmo, has a great point, Villanova whne they went on the track ran fast..in reviewing some of Marty Liquoris training , he ran hard up to three times a week and rcaed on a weekend..didn;t seem to hurt him

In an effort to re-invent the wheel many theories have surfaced, all sound approaches have their merit, but I am now of the theory assuming a sound base, that in order to run fast you need to train much more at race pace or below to really run fast
Thanks
RE: training pace for the mile 12/24/2003 5:54PM - in reply to king99 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks for the great post, Joe Rubio. I'm in my third year coaching at my school, and we're finally progressing to this type of work. This hit the nail on the head as far as what we're doing with some guys who have worked extremely hard for the last couple of years (and more for a few of our runners). Please keep posting insight like this.